God's mercy and compassion.

[Elijah John]

Psalm 103:13-14

As a father has compassion on his children, so YHVH has compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.

1) How does this verse square with the Evangelical notion that one must be perfect or believe that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins in order to experience God's mercy and compassion?

2) How does this verse square with the notion that the "God of the Old Testament" is a God of wrath, and not a God of Fatherly compassion?

3) Is the model of God as Father compatible with the doctrine that He needs blood in order to forgive? How so?

Please address any combination of the above.

[ttruscott]

Psalm 103:13-14

As a father has compassion on his children, so YHVH has compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.

1) How does this verse square with the Evangelical notion that one must be perfect or believe that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins in order to experience God's mercy and compassion?

those who fear him defines those who Jesus died to "pay for" their sins.

2) How does this verse square with the notion that the "God of the Old Testament" is a God of wrath, and not a God of Fatherly compassion?

False notion...He is who HE is and treats people according to their free will decisions about HIMself, some with judgement ansome with compassion.

[Divine Insight]

2) How does this verse square with the notion that the "God of the Old Testament" is a God of wrath, and not a God of Fatherly compassion?

It doesn't. This is just one of many self-contradictory claims being made about the God of this mythology.

If we require that a theological doctrine must be consistent in its claims then we can rule out this entire Hebrew picture of God as being a clearly self-contradictory mythology.

After all, the cornerstone of this entire theology is, "The wages of sin is death", it's not undeserved mercy or compassion.

So in this sense Psalm 103:13-14 is clearly in conflict with the earlier parts of this theology. It doesn't "square" as you say.

This is how we can know that these ancient writings are really nothing more than the various opinions of individual authors, each of whom imagined God to be something different.

[JehovahsWitness]

Psalm 103:13-14

As a father has compassion on his children, so YHVH has compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.

1) How does this verse square with the Evangelical notion that one must be perfect ....

Well the evangelicals are wrong in my opinion.


If by "perfect" they mean to be entirely without sin/people that never make a mistake. The Jehovah's Witness view no human, other than Jesus has lived his whole life and never done anything wrong (sinned) thus no-one is perfect in the sense of being sinless.


JW



Further reading The truth about sin
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010414

RELATED POSTS

How is it that all humans came to be sinners?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 000#841000

Can sin be passed on from parent to Child?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 940#909940

[Elijah John]

Psalm 103:13-14

As a father has compassion on his children, so YHVH has compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.

1) How does this verse square with the Evangelical notion that one must be perfect ....

Well the evangelicals are wrong in my opinion.


If by "perfect" they mean to be entirely without sin/people that never make a mistake. The Jehovah's Witness view no human, other than Jesus has lived his whole life and never done anything wrong (sinned) thus no-one is perfect in the sense of being sinless.


JW



Further reading The truth about sin
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010414

RELATED POSTS

How is it that all humans came to be sinners?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 000#841000

Can sin be passed on from parent to Child?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 940#909940

You omited the other half of the statement. "or believe that Jesus died to pay for our sins".

In fairness to Evanelicals, I think their point is also that no one has been perfect except for Jesus. So if anyone doesn't accept Jesus' sacrifice, then they are in real trouble.

[Elijah John]

Psalm 103:13-14

As a father has compassion on his children, so YHVH has compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.

1) How does this verse square with the Evangelical notion that one must be perfect ....

Well the evangelicals are wrong in my opinion.


If by "perfect" they mean to be entirely without sin/people that never make a mistake. The Jehovah's Witness view no human, other than Jesus has lived his whole life and never done anything wrong (sinned) thus no-one is perfect in the sense of being sinless.


JW



Further reading The truth about sin
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010414

RELATED POSTS

How is it that all humans came to be sinners?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 000#841000

Can sin be passed on from parent to Child?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 940#909940

You omited the other half of the statement. "or believe that Jesus died to pay for our sins".

In fairness to Evanelicals, I think their point is also that no one has been perfect except for Jesus. So if anyone doesn't accept Jesus' sacrifice, then they are in real trouble.

[Elijah John]

Also part of the point of the OP is that King David with this statement shows that God's mercy and compassion is not dependent on the future blood-sacrifice of the Messiah. Just one of many OT examples of this.

The Prophets suggest many alternatives to animal blood sacrifice. But even among the advocates of Temple blood sacrifice, none teach the necessity of the Messiah's future blood sacrifice in order to experience God's love and mercy.

[JehovahsWitness]

You omited the other half of the statement. "or believe that Jesus died to pay for our sins".

Well that half of the statement I think they are right about. Evangelists are in my opinion, wrong that believers have to live their lives without ever doing anything wrong (if that's what evangelists believe). If they believe that we all sin and that "no one has been perfect except for Jesus" then I believe they are right.

In fairness to Evanelicals, I think their point is also that no one has been perfect except for Jesus.

Well in that case, I agree with them.





JW

[Elijah John]

You omited the other half of the statement. "or believe that Jesus died to pay for our sins".

Well that half of the statement I think they are right about. Evangelists are in my opinion, wrong that believers have to live their lives without ever doing anything wrong (if that's what evangelists believe). If they believe that we all sin and that "no one has been perfect except for Jesus" then I believe they are right.

In fairness to Evanelicals, I think their point is also that no one has been perfect except for Jesus.

Well in that case, I agree with them.





JW

Evangelicals will sometimes posit this as a dilemma. Either live a perfect life, or believe that Jesus died to pay for your sins.

I saw a program where some street preachers in England badgered people with questions such as "have you ever told a lie? Then you're a liar and liars won't enter Heaven", and on and on. "Therefore, (so they say) you need Jesus".

Catagorical and simplistic. And refuted by the Biblical principle of repentance and forgiveness. A person who lied in the past and repents and changes their ways is no longer a "liar".

[The Tanager]

Psalm 103:13-14

Quote:
As a father has compassion on his children, so YHVH has compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.


1) How does this verse square with the Evangelical notion that one must be perfect or believe that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins in order to experience God's mercy and compassion?

What do you mean by "experience God's mercy and compassion"? I don't think Evangelicals believe God's mercy and compassion come when we believe Jesus died for us. God can only show mercy and compassion because of who He is, so God shows mercy and compassion to all. But Evangelicals do believe only those who come through who Jesus is and what Jesus did will enter God's kingdom.

2) How does this verse square with the notion that the "God of the Old Testament" is a God of wrath, and not a God of Fatherly compassion?

The whole OT/NT-Wrath/Love split is completely inaccurate. There is wrath in the NT and love and mercy all throughout the Tanakh. I actually think the wrath/mercy split is a bit misleading, seeing both as two sides of the coin of love.

3) Is the model of God as Father compatible with the doctrine that He needs blood in order to forgive? How so?

I think God's "need of blood" is often misunderstood within (and outside of) Evangelicals. I also think the Evangelical picture of Jesus paying for our sins is thought to be one of the understandings of one of the theories of atonement, when Evangelicals accept various theories and should, with CS Lewis, not confuse the theories of atonement with the actual event itself.

Evangelicals will sometimes posit this as a dilemma. Either live a perfect life, or believe that Jesus died to pay for your sins.

I saw a program where some street preachers in England badgered people with questions such as "have you ever told a lie? Then you're a liar and liars won't enter Heaven", and on and on. "Therefore, (so they say) you need Jesus".

Catagorical and simplistic. And refuted by the Biblical principle of repentance and forgiveness. A person who lied in the past and repents and changes their ways is no longer a "liar".

I don't think my Evangelical notion (shared by many Evangelicals) is refuted by the Biblical idea of repentance and forgiveness. Many Evangelicals would agree that a person who lied in the past and repents and changes their ways is no longer a liar. They just don't think this is humanly possible. Yes, you could quit lying, but if you live life on your own, you are going to continue sinning in various ways. That's because our sins are the symptom of the real problem...not living life in concert with God, but seeking our own selfish desires in our own wisdom. Evangelicals argue that we can't fully repent on our own, but that we need God to walk with us to repent perfectly. This happens through Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.