Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[TSGracchus]

!

Jehovah, the Father, whom Jesus called "the ONLY true God" (John 17:3), has allowed Satan to prove his challenge that he (Satan) could get every human to curse God if those humans were made to suffer in some way. It is only fair, as many angels and even humans would certainly wonder if Satan could prove that. On top of that, if mankind was allowed to rule itself (without Jehovah's interference) and could rule successfully, he could then show that Jehovah wouldn't be the best Ruler of the universe. So this situation has been going on for thousands of years, but it is really a blip on the face of eternity.

I have read the Bible. I must have missed all that.

As Jehovah'sWitness said, we do not believe that Jesus is God. We believe that the Bible does not teach that.

At least, we can agree on that.

[TSGracchus]

!

Jehovah, the Father, whom Jesus called "the ONLY true God" (John 17:3), has allowed Satan to prove his challenge that he (Satan) could get every human to curse God if those humans were made to suffer in some way. It is only fair, as many angels and even humans would certainly wonder if Satan could prove that. On top of that, if mankind was allowed to rule itself (without Jehovah's interference) and could rule successfully, he could then show that Jehovah wouldn't be the best Ruler of the universe. So this situation has been going on for thousands of years, but it is really a blip on the face of eternity.

I have read the Bible. I must have missed all that.

As Jehovah'sWitness said, we do not believe that Jesus is God. We believe that the Bible does not teach that.

At least, we can agree on that.

[elijahpne]

[Replying to post 3 by catnip]

Honestly, mate, I don't really know what Scriptures you are reading. Paradise (Eden) was indeed on earth when Adam and Eve were created but they were driven out of it. Gen. 3:23 says: "Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden". This Eden was a collateral damage, apparently, during the Flood of Noah's day.

Even Jesus indicated that Paradise was still future in his days on earth for he promised the evildoer who was impaled alongside him: "You WILL be with me in Paradise" - Luke 23:43.

And besides, for the evildoer to be in Paradise, he would have to be resurrected. But resurrection will only happen in the last days - in the second presence of Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16 confirms this when it says that in "the coming of the Lord ... the dead in Christ shall rise first".

[TSGracchus]

[Replying to elijahpne]
The previous verse gives context: Humans were now like the Elohim in that they knew good and evil, so if they lived forever they would be even more like the Elohim.

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken." -- Genesis 3:22-23 KJV

"And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken." -- Genesis 3:22-23 NIV

So the Elohim did not drive them out to punish them, per se, he drove them out to keep them from living forever, like the the Elohim. Don't need more Elohim, that's for sure.

[elijahpne]

[Replying to post 1012 by TSGracchus]

So the Elohim did not drive them out to punish them, per se, he drove them out to keep them from living forever, like the the Elohim. Don't need more Elohim, that's for sure.

Adam and Eve were given the prospect of living forever before they sinned. Remember Genesis 2:17 -

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

They only lost that prospect by disobedience and so God had to drive them out. That sounds like a punishment to them.

[onewithhim]

!

Jehovah, the Father, whom Jesus called "the ONLY true God" (John 17:3), has allowed Satan to prove his challenge that he (Satan) could get every human to curse God if those humans were made to suffer in some way. It is only fair, as many angels and even humans would certainly wonder if Satan could prove that. On top of that, if mankind was allowed to rule itself (without Jehovah's interference) and could rule successfully, he could then show that Jehovah wouldn't be the best Ruler of the universe. So this situation has been going on for thousands of years, but it is really a blip on the face of eternity.

I have read the Bible. I must have missed all that.

As Jehovah'sWitness said, we do not believe that Jesus is God. We believe that the Bible does not teach that.

At least, we can agree on that.

I'm glad we agree on that. The Gospel of John, for one, is packed FULL of indications (outright statements, in fact) that Jesus is subordinate to his Father and would never say that he is equal to the Father. Bad translation notwithstanding, there are no clear statements saying that Jesus is God. John 1:1 is a pathetically bad translation, ignoring the rules of translating from Greek into English. John 8:58 is an even more pathetic mess of a translation, playing on the fact that Exodus 3:14 seemingly says that God is saying that He is "I AM," and then Jesus claims that he is "I AM" at John 8:58, which is absurd. The verse doesn't say that at all when properly rendered, following the pattern of all other translations of "ego eimi" that appear in the accounts---one of the most often uttered phrases in human speech.

Perhaps you could read the Gospel of John again and notice all of the places that Jesus says plainly that he can do nothing on his own but follows the example and direction of his Father, and speaks what the Father tells him to say, and gets his power FROM the Father.....and he even says (crystal clear) that the Father is "MY GOD." (John 20:17) Could God HAVE a God? Let me know what you think.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to elijahpne]
The previous verse gives context: Humans were now like the Elohim in that they knew good and evil, so if they lived forever they would be even more like the Elohim.

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken." -- Genesis 3:22-23 KJV

"And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken." -- Genesis 3:22-23 NIV

So the Elohim did not drive them out to punish them, per se, he drove them out to keep them from living forever, like the the Elohim. Don't need more Elohim, that's for sure.

Satan fooled Eve into thinking that God was holding something back from her and Adam and that they could become like God. So she wanted to be like God. She wanted to make her own decisions about what is good and what is bad, and she and Adam effectively accomplished that, to their own detriment. Eve thought she could last forever being like God, but she was rudely awakened. Satan knew she WOULD die, but convinced her otherwise. God said, afterward, that the two humans DID become like God in that they asked for independence and would now make their own rules.

"Elohim" (Jehovah God) did punish them by driving them out of Eden, because they willfully rebelled against Him, disobeying His simple request that they not touch one tree. They also lost their right to eternal life, and Adam knew that it would be the case if they disobeyed. They were instructed and warned. They'd still be here if they had obeyed Jehovah.

(Most folks don't understand that "elohim" does not refer to any particular person or god. It simply means a plurality of MAGNIFICENCE. Even false pagan gods were given the title of "elohim," such as Dagon of the Canaanites who wasn't worshipped as a trinity but as a single god.)

[elijahpne]

[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]

We're on the same page Sister. Unable to PM

[TSGracchus]

[Replying to onewithhim]
Read it again!
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken." -- Genesis 3:22-23 KJV

"And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken." -- Genesis 3:22-23 NIV

The Lord God said that they had become "like one of us", just as the serpent said, and the reason he sent them from the garden is so that they would not eat of the tree of life and become eternal. It wasn't to punish them, it was to keep them from becoming like the Elohim, just as the serpent said.


It is right in front of you on the screen, or on the page. You can deny what the Bible says what God said, but you cannot be honest if you do.

[Elijah John]

It is right in front of you on the screen, or on the page. You can deny what the Bible says what God said, but you cannot be honest if you do.[/size]

Moderator Comment

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