God designed cancer and birth defects.

[Jagella]

Apologists and creationists in particular love to wow us with the amazing design of the world. We have many beautiful animals and plants to ogle. And if that isn't amazing enough, we have discovered a genetic code we call "DNA" that exists in each of the trillions of our cells. This code lays out a blueprint for what we all are--amazing, functional, and beautiful beings! Surely a god must be responsible for all this wonder because we need a designer to explain DNA.

But wait. It doesn't always work out in a good way. DNA often "malfunctions" resulting in cancer and birth defects. What kind of design is that? What monster-god would plan that babies are born without eyes and that people would suffer and die as cancer cells multiply wildly and destroy their bodies?

Question for Debate: Did the Bible god design cancer and birth defects?

[amortalman]

Certainly a debatable question, Jagella. Goes along with the question of why does God allow such horrendous suffering in the world.

Believers can get round the problem of God allowing bad things to happen under the title of non-interference.

That argument is certainly out there but it is lame. A famous quote declares: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." In the present case, one can substitute "God" for "good men." God set the stage and directs the play which is wrought with undeserved misery and then takes a hands-off attitude that his followers declare is a virtue.

[Jagella]

God set the stage and directs the play which is wrought with undeserved misery and then takes a hands-off attitude that his followers declare is a virtue.

The Christian god commands us to help others when we can. Matthew 25:41-43:

Then he will say to those at his left hand, You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.

So by Jesus' own words the Christian god deserves to go to hell for not feeding the hungry, not giving drink to the thirsty, not welcoming strangers, not clothing the naked, not visiting the sick in prison not to mention not making sure DNA does not cause birth defects and cancer.

[ttruscott]

I posit that this world was NOT made in the image of GOD's goodness and kindness but in the image of mankind's evil, ie, the broken image of GOD.

There is no way of verifying what you "posit".

I eagerly await your proof my position cannot be true...

[rikuoamero]

I posit that this world was NOT made in the image of GOD's goodness and kindness but in the image of mankind's evil, ie, the broken image of GOD.

There is no way of verifying what you "posit".

I eagerly await your proof my position cannot be true...

Do I even need to point out to you that this is a shifting of the burden of proof?

[ttruscott]

Believers can get round the problem of God allowing bad things to happen under the title of non-interference.

That argument is certainly out there but it is lame.

...

God set the stage and directs the play which is wrought with undeserved misery and then takes a hands-off attitude that his followers declare is a virtue.

This is about non-interference? Sorry but that is a strawman argument because there is no such doctrine in the Churches. GOD has predetermined all things*, the sufferings of the reprobate are judgements against them** and the sufferings of the sinful elect are painful disciplines designed to train them in righteousness***.

*Proverbs 16:33 "The dice are thrown in the lap, and every decision is from the Lord"

Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for His purpose"even [the lives of] the wicked for the day of disaster. 9 A mans heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

**Romans 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Isaiah 13:11 Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

***Heb 12:5-11.

So non-interference is a non-starter, a made up story to fight on sure ground instead of dealing with the real Christian doctrines on the subject.

Every convert is a sinner and every sinner is to some extent adversarial to GOD and his self will, his sinful nature, must be overcome and that is often by opposing his love for sin and forcing his eyes to open to his need.

Non-interference, pfffft!

[ttruscott]

God set the stage and directs the play which is wrought with undeserved misery and then takes a hands-off attitude that his followers declare is a virtue.

Woah, which Church did you get this from? It is at best Gnostic theology (YHWH is an evil lesser god who made an evil creaton, us) and at worst it is part of the Satanic apology. It is certainly not Christian.

Even though a man who goes in to a baby and cuts its heart out may be labeled a monster wreaking undeserved misery, this nasty pov would not be held up by the real context that he is a surgeon cutting out her heart for a transplant!!!!

And though every Judge is universally hated by the criminals HE sentences, if HE is a righteous judge then they do indeed deserve their sentence. Anyone who has ever read the Bible knows that neither YHWH nor any Christian believes that GOD wreaks undeserved suffering upon the world so to claim this is the stage that GOD has set up is disingenuous at best...

[amortalman]

Believers can get round the problem of God allowing bad things to happen under the title of non-interference.

That argument is certainly out there but it is lame.

...

God set the stage and directs the play which is wrought with undeserved misery and then takes a hands-off attitude that his followers declare is a virtue.

This is about non-interference? Sorry but that is a strawman argument because there is no such doctrine in the Churches.

Did I claim it was a church doctrine? No. But I have heard countless Christians excuse their God's failure to show mercy or love to the sufferings of the people and the animal kingdom which he, himself created.

GOD has predetermined all things*, the sufferings of the reprobate are judgements against them** and the sufferings of the sinful elect are painful disciplines designed to train them in righteousness***.

Tell me how a six-month-old baby undergoing chemotherapy is being trained in righteousness. Tell me how a six-year-old girl who has been raped and strangled by a psychopathic pedophile has received training in righteousness.

So non-interference is a non-starter, a made up story to fight on sure ground instead of dealing with the real Christian doctrines on the subject.

Not sure what you mean by "a made up story to fight on sure ground"?? I don't know what you consider "real" Christian doctrines. I do know that you are outside orthodox Christianity if indeed you believe "we had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe." So you have no sure ground to talk to me about Christian doctrines.

When your God made all his decrees and determined everything do you suppose that he also decreed that he would not interfere with his so-called judgments and righteousness training? To say that the Christian God takes a hands-off position in regard to innocent suffering is a pretty good starter in my book.

Every convert is a sinner and every sinner is to some extent adversarial to GOD and his self will, his sinful nature, must be overcome and that is often by opposing his love for sin and forcing his eyes to open to his need.

Non-interference, pfffft!

Huff and puff all you want but it won't change the truth.

[amortalman]

God set the stage and directs the play which is wrought with undeserved misery and then takes a hands-off attitude that his followers declare is a virtue.

Woah, which Church did you get this from?

"God set the stage and directs the play..." The very verses you quoted in your first reply to my post verifies this.

"...which is wrought with underserved misery..." No one can deny that the world is full of pain and misery. You might also say that it is full of joy and hope. Both exist side by side.

"(God) then takes a hands-off attitude that his followers declare is a virtue." God allows great suffering in the world even to innocent babes and children. The Christian Church accepts this as part of God's overall plan. How else can they define it but as a virtue of their God?

Even though a man who goes in to a baby and cuts its heart out may be labeled a monster wreaking undeserved misery, this nasty pov would not be held up by the real context that he is a surgeon cutting out her heart for a transplant!!!!

If I'm understanding your comparison correctly then it's an inaccurate one. I've never known of a surgical operation to remove an organ for transplant misunderstood for the butchering of a helpless baby! Besides, it could be easily explained what was really going on, couldn't it? To compare that with what the Christian God does on a regular basis without any explanation whatsoever is way off the mark!

And though every Judge is universally hated by the criminals HE sentences, if HE is a righteous judge then they do indeed deserve their sentence. Anyone who has ever read the Bible knows that neither YHWH nor any Christian believes that GOD wreaks undeserved suffering upon the world so to claim this is the stage that GOD has set up is disingenuous at best...

Will you tell me how a righteous judge inflicts diseases on millions of children each year leaving many blind, paralyzed, mentally disabled or dead? I use the example of children because they are the most vulnerable and innocent in our society. The full truth is that many good and honorable people suffer horrendous fates. You might call these unfortunate folks reprobates deserving of God's punishments, or else they are the "elect" that are being disciplined. If you have any verifiable proof of this the world is waiting and you are in for a Nobel prize. Good luck with that.

[ttruscott]

GOD has predetermined all things*, the sufferings of the reprobate are judgements against them** and the sufferings of the sinful elect are painful disciplines designed to train them in righteousness***.

Tell me how a six-month-old baby undergoing chemotherapy is being trained in righteousness. Tell me how a six-year-old girl who has been raped and strangled by a psychopathic pedophile has received training in righteousness.

IN SHORT: my definition of reality is that no one is a child in life except as a human...only baby's bodies are new. Every person on earth has two aspects contrary to the common secular opinion:
- all humans are at the very least 6000 years old.
- Every human is a spirit who is moved, ie, sown, into a human body at conception and is an ancient sinner who has chosen to rebel against GOD or to reject HIM as GOD during their 6000 years alive in the spirit realm, pre-earth.
- two kinds of sinners are born as human: those who can be redeemed and those who are beyond redemption, ie, unforgivable.

Earth is a prison planet for such sinners and every person in the prison is under a legitimate death sentence from a proper Judge. The sentence of death is executed at any and every 'age' of a human sinner from one minute old as a foetus or as a 125 year old.

Another point is that suffering and death has different meanings FOR the different groups: for the sinful elect, GOD works the sufferings of their lives and their death to their good, ie, for the intent of their rehabilitation that they come to realize their need to repent and find a saviour. But for the non-elect reprobate, all suffering and death is a direct and proportionate response as a judgement against their sin which they have earned by their choices.

Another point in which we differ about life as a foetus is in Psalm 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place. and in Luke 1 about John the baptizer: 15... he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb.

These verses indicate that GOD is with the foetus in the womb, teaching and supporting, and that the foetus has ability far beyond the tabula rasa definition of their lack of ability. They have an ability to communicate with GOD and to understand intellectually their past and in some cases (Jacob and Esau), their futures.

And lastly is the idea that while sin has an equal and ultimate disvalue in GOD's sight, our unwillingness to to sin is indeed stronger in some than in others and has great value to HIM. Some sinners are so little dedicated to sin that they may need only a few days or a few years to understand that the suffering they feel is an inevitable result of choosing to be sinful and their absolute necessity to repent is fostered by a close and supportive communication with GOD. As soon as the person understands and repents they may die and be done with this world and move on, ie, there is no more need for them to live and suffer. Death is a release for this world.

How and why the suffering is caused has nothing to do with the needs of the victim....a virus, a train wreck and a psychopath may be felt much the same way. But like Job took the hostility for Satan in order to expose his great commitment to causing suffering for YHWH's people so they turn from him and sin and to their GOD, so too does the psychopath prove the fullness of evil when the leaven (sin) has fully leavened (corrupted) the whole lump of dough (person). Yet some people may have chosen, like Job did, to expose that evil by taking the suffering in a short massive dose to then be free from this life on Prison Earth forever.

[amortalman]

GOD has predetermined all things*, the sufferings of the reprobate are judgements against them** and the sufferings of the sinful elect are painful disciplines designed to train them in righteousness***.

Tell me how a six-month-old baby undergoing chemotherapy is being trained in righteousness. Tell me how a six-year-old girl who has been raped and strangled by a psychopathic pedophile has received training in righteousness.

IN SHORT: my definition of reality is that no one is a child in life except as a human...only baby's bodies are new. Every person on earth has two aspects contrary to the common secular opinion:
- all humans are at the very least 6000 years old.
- Every human is a spirit who is moved, ie, sown, into a human body at conception and is an ancient sinner who has chosen to rebel against GOD or to reject HIM as GOD during their 6000 years alive in the spirit realm, pre-earth.
- two kinds of sinners are born as human: those who can be redeemed and those who are beyond redemption, ie, unforgivable.

Earth is a prison planet for such sinners and every person in the prison is under a legitimate death sentence from a proper Judge. The sentence of death is executed at any and every 'age' of a human sinner from one minute old as a foetus or as a 125 year old.

Another point is that suffering and death has different meanings FOR the different groups: for the sinful elect, GOD works the sufferings of their lives and their death to their good, ie, for the intent of their rehabilitation that they come to realize their need to repent and find a saviour. But for the non-elect reprobate, all suffering and death is a direct and proportionate response as a judgement against their sin which they have earned by their choices.

Another point in which we differ about life as a foetus is in Psalm 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place. and in Luke 1 about John the baptizer: 15... he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb.

So let me get this straight. Babies and children suffer (and some are brutally killed) because of some offense against God they committed in their pre-existence, is that correct? Do the babies and children remember what they did in their pre-existence to warrant their punishment?
I know you won't mind listing supporting scriptures that back up your claims including scriptures that clearly state we had a 6000-year pre-earth existence. Also, have you explored other expositions of Psalm 51:6? I have, and they make much more sense to me than the one you provided.
Finally, your definition of reality needs to be supported by evidence, wouldn't you agree? Where's the evidence?