Are Gods physical?

[ytrewq]

In a previous thread I was astounded to hear the claim that Gods are not physical, presumably meaning they do not consist of physical matter. How any theist could actually claim to know that is a mystery, but never mind. The question being asked here is :-

Are Gods made from physical matter, and if they are not, then what are they made from.

If they are able to think and do stuff, then presumably they must be made of something.

By physical matter, I mean the physical stuff within our Universe from which everything else is made from, which includes atoms, sub-atomic particles, and to be fair I suppose we must include dark matter as well.

But there are other classes of things that undeniably exist, that are not physical matter as such, that perhaps Gods could be made of. Here is a list of stuff that definitely exists, and thus Gods might potentially be made of :-

(a) Physical matter, including atoms, sub-atomic particles, and dark matter

(b) Electromagnetic radiation and other forms of radiation, energy and fields. For example, light and radio waves.

(c) Human (or animal) feelings, emotions, thoughts, love, hate jealousy, intelligence, stupidity, truth, dishonesty, spirituality and so on. All of these can be said to exist, but not in a physical form.

(d) Similar to (c), morals, legal or scientific laws, stories, information, principles, and so on. As with (c), all of these can be said to exist, but not in a physical form, although the media that encodes them may be physical, such as a book or CD.

OK. So what are Gods made from? Certainly not anything in the (c) or (d) category, which do not physically exist in their own right and are not capable of performing physical feats on their own. That is, it makes no sense to say that a God (or anything else) is made from love, or justice or logic or spirituality. These are attributes of something that physically exists.

I have heard it said that Gods are not physical, but spiritual. Spiritual is an adjective, an attribute of something that exists, so it makes no sense to say that a God is made of spirituality, any more than saying it is made of love. So sure, Gods probably are very spiritual things, but that says nothing of what they are made from, which is the topic of this thread.

So what is left? Within the realms of human knowledge, and Im not interested in just making stuff up, then I must conclude that Gods (if they exist) are made of the same stuff that everything else in the Universe is made of, being categories (a) and (b).

Anyone agree or disagree with the above?

[William]

[Replying to post 20 by rikuoamero]

"Spirit" is a nonsense word. At this point in time, it means nothing.

Spirit.

noun
1.
the non-physical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.
"we seek a harmony between body and spirit"
synonyms: soul, psyche, inner self, inner being, essential being;
2.
the prevailing or typical quality, mood, or attitude of a person, group, or period of time.
"I hope the team will build on this spirit of confidence"
synonyms: ethos, prevailing tendency, motivating force, animating principle, dominating characteristic, essence, quintessence;
verb
1.
convey rapidly and secretly.
"stolen cows were spirited away some distance to prevent detection"
synonyms: abduct, kidnap, make off with, run away with, whisk away, carry off, steal away with, snatch, seize; abscond with
"the girl was spirited away before we got anywhere near her"

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 21 by William]

In the context of this thread, it means nothing. OP seeks to understand what God is, gave four categories of things that exist in our reality, and was told that God is spirit. To which OP asks the follow up question, what is spirit? OP noted that this thing, called by some God, has apparently accomplished things, done things.
"the non-physical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul. "
Can that do things? Can a seat of emotions and character do things in the real world? Can my soul (whatever that is) do things?

"the prevailing or typical quality, mood, or attitude of a person, group, or period of time. "
So God is mood? A mood? An attitude?

"convey rapidly and secretly. "
So God is...convey rapidly and secretly.

Sorry (not sorry), but I'm still at a loss. The term "spirit", in the context of this discussion, is still unintelligible to me.

[rikuoamero]

JW, if you would please give me a reply as to my rebuttal to your claim that "No human has ever seen God, nor could he and survive the experience."
You threw that out there in your initial reply to OP, I rebutted it and so far...it seems like you're ignoring it. Are you going to admit you were wrong?

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by ytrewq]

In a previous thread I was astounded to hear the claim that Gods are not physical, presumably meaning they do not consist of physical matter. How any theist could actually claim to know that is a mystery, but never mind.

I find the above to be quite surprising in today's day and age.

"Good gosh! You'll never guess what I heard today!"

"No. What did you hear today?"

"I heard that Gods are not physical! They do not consist of physical matter! Astounding!"

"Really? 'Astounding'? Where have you been all your life?"

Q: Are Gods made from physical matter, and if they are not, then what are they made from.

Consciousness.

Q: If they are able to think and do stuff, then presumably they must be made of something.

If they are able to do stuff, then yes they would have to indwell physical stuff in order to do so.

By physical matter, I mean the physical stuff within our Universe from which everything else is made from, which includes atoms, sub-atomic particles, and to be fair I suppose we must include dark matter as well.

Yes. For all we know, the whole physical universe is imbued by a GOD, and this may be the very reason it is unfolding in this particular manifestation.

But there are other classes of things that undeniably exist, that are not physical matter as such, that perhaps Gods could be made of. Here is a list of stuff that definitely exists, and thus Gods might potentially be made of :-

There are 'things' and there are 'non-things'. Generally we are taught that we humans are 'things'. We are the physical bodies we express ourselves through.

What if that is not the actual case at all? What if we ARE actually 'spirits' (aspects of GOD-consciousness) who are using the human form for the experience.

(a) Physical matter, including atoms, sub-atomic particles, and dark matter

The idea is that GOD is really not a 'thing' in terms of physical material. GOD is the conscious self aware creative entity which utilizes things that It has created for the purpose of experience.

(b) Electromagnetic radiation and other forms of radiation, energy and fields. For example, light and radio waves.

And possibly a lot of other stuff we have yet to discover...

(c) Human (or animal) feelings, emotions, thoughts, love, hate jealousy, intelligence, stupidity, truth, dishonesty, spirituality and so on. All of these can be said to exist, but not in a physical form.

They exist through physical form. We cannot easily know if therefore the physical form is entirely responsible for the creation of such 'non things' or that they reside within "Spirit" and are more easily expressed by spirit, through a physical medium designed for such purpose.

(d) Similar to (c), morals, legal or scientific laws, stories, information, principles, and so on. As with (c), all of these can be said to exist, but not in a physical form, although the media that encodes them may be physical, such as a book or CD.

Yes - like 'ideas' which come from 'imagination' which are 'made real' through the physical medium.

These are that which are oft considered to be 'of GOD' in general terms, rather than agreed upon in specific religious terms.

However, ideas coming from imagination are no less real than the physical results which eventuate from them. Where is the line between what is real and what is not, situated? Indeed, does the line even really exist.

That is the essence of why the question "Is GOD real" even exists.

What we are experiencing is the physical, and it is called 'reality' because it is physical and can be experienced as real.

But we do not know with any certainty that we are not 'spirits in a physical world' - conscious beings able to experience the "things" we have created for that very purpose. Even to such a degree that we can fool our selves into believing that we are not even as real as that which we created to experience as real.

Indeed, it is my belief that "GOD" - as consciousness - is the only 'thing' which is real. Consciousness is real, and everyTHING It then creates to experience, is illusion compared to IT. This reality we are experiencing is not created to last forever.

So what is left? Within the realms of human knowledge, and Im not interested in just making stuff up, then I must conclude that Gods (if they exist) are made of the same stuff that everything else in the Universe is made of, being categories (a) and (b).

Anyone agree or disagree with the above?

I think the problem with creating threads in which to explore ideas and argue notions is that when it comes to asking Q's such as this, one has to define what one means by "GODs" which of course the OP content is at a loss in knowing how to do so.

It renders the question rather pointless in relation to that.


That is why I often refer to GOD as "Consciousness" because this gives some degree of commonality which most can grasp/get the gist of, and so a better chance at having a same-page-to-start-off-with can be [potentially] achieved in which to launch into debate from. Potential is the key device. "Potential" is yet another 'thing' which is not physical but still interacts with the physical 'stuff'.

[ytrewq]

[Replying to post 20 by rikuoamero]

"Spirit" is a nonsense word. At this point in time, it means nothing.

Spirit.

noun
1.
the non-physical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.
"we seek a harmony between body and spirit"
synonyms: soul, psyche, inner self, inner being, essential being;
2.
the prevailing or typical quality, mood, or attitude of a person, group, or period of time.
"I hope the team will build on this spirit of confidence"
synonyms: ethos, prevailing tendency, motivating force, animating principle, dominating characteristic, essence, quintessence;
verb
1.
convey rapidly and secretly.
"stolen cows were spirited away some distance to prevent detection"
synonyms: abduct, kidnap, make off with, run away with, whisk away, carry off, steal away with, snatch, seize; abscond with
"the girl was spirited away before we got anywhere near her"

Agreed that looking in the dictionary is always a good start.

We can at once rule out the usage a a verb.

Then you can have team spirit, which is a positive attitude, an enthusiasm, which clearly has nothing to do with the claim that God is a spirit.

Then there is the very similar use of the word applied to a person, where a person's spirit is their zest for life, their enthusiasm. Sure, I have a zest for life, an enthusiasm, as do you and JW. This fits perfectly with my category (c), for things that exist but not in a physical form, exactly consistent with the dictionary definition.

(c) Human (or animal) feelings, emotions, thoughts, love, hate jealousy, intelligence, stupidity, truth, dishonesty, spirituality and so on. All of these can be said to exist, but not in a physical form.

But again, this is does not help us understand what it means to say that God is a spirit. The dictionary is talking about an attribute of individual people. And on top of that, the"human spirits" in the dictionary are not in themselves capable of performing feats, as they are non-physical attributes of something else that is physical, the person.

Sadly then, the dictionary leaves us none the wiser as to what it means to say that God is a spirit, and JW has not been able to tell us what his "God spirit" is or means either, so it's fair enough that we atheists cannot "grasp" what he is talking about.

The ball is still in JW's court, to explain what a "spirit" is in his usage of the word. On the evidence so far I am still of the view that is does not mean anything at all, but am happy to be shown otherwise. Can JW, or anyone else, please tell us what a "God spirit" is?

[William]

[Replying to post 22 by rikuoamero]

In the context of this thread, it means nothing.

See my post above for more data on that observation. The dictionary definition will suffice to some degree in that, "Spirit" means all those things to human beings, thus those definitions can all go some way in which we can define "GOD" before commencing to try and understand what the implications are.

Without some definition, no 'same-page' is created and thus any argument will eventually peter out as 'agreeing to disagree' and so forth and so on...no real useful knowledge to be had from it. Except maybe, what not to waste one's time on.

['Time' and 'Knowledge' is also something which is not physical real but still reacts with physical reality.]

OP seeks to understand what God is, gave four categories of things that exist in our reality, and was told that God is spirit. To which OP asks the follow up question, what is spirit? OP noted that this thing, called by some God, has apparently accomplished things, done things.
"the non-physical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul. "
Can that do things? Can a seat of emotions and character do things in the real world? Can my soul (whatever that is) do things?

According to what the human definitions of "Spirit" are. Add that to the belief that "GOD is Spirit" and we have some [non 'thing'] to work with. The apparent 'non' "thing" is not a 'some' "thing" but neither is it a 'nothing.'

"Spirit" = "Consciousness" and yes, consciousness exists and is able to use the human form in which to experience human emotions, develop human characteristics, and work on being truthful/true to individual uniqueness. The 'Soul' can indeed 'do things'. Things are there, 'to be done.'

"the prevailing or typical quality, mood, or attitude of a person, group, or period of time. "
So God is mood? A mood? An attitude?

Yes. Why not?

One has to consider the form consciousness is using to work and experience through, and it is by far the easiest [for humans] to identify with the human experience and this allows for the tendency to give ideas of GODs a human touch. Factoring that in isn't silly, but it still must be observed that the definition will fall short if it can only be 'human' 'of a particular humanoid form' 'gender-based' etc.

Point being, we know consciousness. 'Mood' and 'attitude' are of the same source, as are the ability to interact with what we understand as being 'physical reality'.

"convey rapidly and secretly. "
So God is...convey rapidly and secretly.

Out of context. The idea of 'spiriting something away' has to do with being secretive and if GOD has to be secretive, then there will be a great reason WHY.

This will have a lot to do with the other definitions of 'spirit' and all acknowledgment begins and continues with Consciousness. Without that, no thing can ever be acknowledge as existing.

Therefore, on that basis, reason would have me conclude that no 'thing' can exist without consciousness claiming so.

But no. I do not think that "GOD means to 'convey rapidly and secretively' although I do not doubt that theists throughout history have had to sneak around as they avoided 'others' who were out to prevent them from outwardly proselytizing. Atheists too, in opposition. Theists and atheists sneaking around avoiding actual 'eye' contact as it were.

Add that to the other notions of 'Spirit' and we have a situation which is akin to;

'Spirit' [GOD] hiding from Itself within multitude forms, and not understanding that this is a game of 'spirits hide from spirits not realizing that they are even spirits.'

And;

'Spirits wondering if 'GOD' exists, and believing one way or the other or not at all either way' and not really understanding that the question cannot be answered until the 'spirits' understand individually that if they began to know what they really are, they would also have better definitions for 'what GOD is'.

Sorry (not sorry), but I'm still at a loss. The term "spirit", in the context of this discussion, is still unintelligible to me.

What about the term 'Consciousness'. Is that any more helpful to you?

[1213]

In a previous thread I was astounded to hear the claim that Gods are not physical, ...

Now that you are speaking of all gods, then I think it should be clear that some of them are physical matter. For example, people have kept golden calf as their god. It is made of physical matter that is gold.

Bible God is not same, because it is said He is spirit and love:

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 4:24

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

[postroad]

[Replying to post 27 by 1213]

And yet the spiritual realm and its inhabitants are as created as our own.

[ytrewq]

[Replying to post 24 by William]

So you have decided to throw your hat into the ring. That is good. This is a forum for discussion and scrutiny of ideas, the more the merrier.

I will respond, but first make the observation that you clearly have quite a different idea as to what God is compared to say JW or Christians. That does not bode well for the notion of any God. If theists cannot agree on what God is, then as an independent, unbiased observer, why should I believe what any of the theists tell me? If most of them are wrong, as clearly they must be, then that suggests to me that they are all wrong. On what basis would I choose one theistic belief over another? Just one more reason to suspect that Gods simply don't exist, but that was not the topic of this thread. {Rant over}

As yet I have only skimmed through your posting. but your key claim seems to be that God is consciousness.

But that makes no sense to me, being akin to saying that God is enthusiasm or love or happiness or awareness and so on.

Consciousness is an attribute of living creatures, humans for the point of discussion, a state of mind, and has no existence as an entity in it's own right.

On the face of it, you have just substituted one word for another.

OK, so we all posses consciousness, we are all conscious organisms. Does that mean each one of us is a God? On second thoughts, best to leave the word "God" right out of the discussion, as it can only cause bias and confusion, and your view is apparently that God and consciousness are one and the same thing. OK. Se we are all conscious, except when we are asleep or knocked out. So what?

I have a Quantum Computer to design, that's what I'm actually employed for, so need to leave now to do some "real" work, but I'll return and look more closely at your posting. Quantum computers are probably as close as it gets to reading and harnessing the mind of god, so probably we'll get the thing built and then find it doesn't work.

[ttruscott]

Anyone agree or disagree with the above?

All your choices are in / from the material world or realm or sphere but there is another existence where thinking self and other aware people can exist and that is spiritual realm and the people are spirits. Spirit is not just the name for what they are it is what they are! It is a category of being and it is not created by the physical realm.

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." is written. It is NOT written is that GOD is material, or atoms or wave lengths etc. GOD has emotions, he is not emotions any more than a human is defined by a fleeting emotion, man is laughter or some such.