This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

[Overcomer]

Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and signs of the end times in Matt. 24:1-35:

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

4 Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation,[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand" 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now"and never to be equaled again.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Messiah! or, There he is! do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 So if anyone tells you, There he is, out in the wilderness, do not go out; or, Here he is, in the inner rooms, do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 Immediately after the distress of those days


the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

[polonius]

JW posted:

It might be an idea to return to the topic at hand.

RESPONSE: OK. Lets do that.
Summarizing,
././././
Jesus says he will return. He than says he will return during the lives of some of those standing here. He tells his apostles that if they spread his teaching in Israel, they will not have gone through all the towns before he returns. Jesus tells the High priest that he will see Jesus returning in glory evidently during is life time. In 1 Thessalonians Paul too says that Jesus will return during his generation.

But none of this has happened. Jesus was wrong.

That is your chosen topic, and your take.

However the topic specified for this thread is: who is "this generation?"

RESPONSE: The three statements, (1) this generation, (2) you will have not gone through all the towns of Israel and the statement to the high priest that (3) he would see the second coming leaves no reasonable doubt about what Christ said or meant.

Of course rather than admit that Jesus was in error, some try to argue (irrationally) that Jesus really meant something else. But given the plain meaning of the words Jesus used, that's not reasonable.

Reasonable?

Seemingly, yet only your (1) specifically uses " generation".

You use the other two as proof of your already assumed and therefore unproven meaning.

The "plain meaning" is only found by a study of the many times Jesus actually used the word "generation".

RESPONSE: On the contrary, it would be how many times Jesus used the expression "THIS GENERATION". And of course reinforced that description by other events especially his followers not being able to go through" all the towns in Israel" before he returned.

I find the fundamentalist argument not to be creditable. It's much more credible to believe what Jesus actually said.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 398 by polonius]

I find the fundamentalist argument not to be creditable. It's much more credible to believe what Jesus actually said.

What specifically is this "fundamentalist argument"?

"Jesus actually said" what, specifically, about "this generation" when he used that term?

[marco]

Jesus said "this generation", referring to one that was then present, and would remain until all was fulfilled.

He did not say "that generation", referring to a 70 year one that began 2000 years later.

We are clutching at straws. True, Jesus referred to a wicked and adulterous generation, which just comes over as silly hyperbole used in irritation that he wasn't appreciated. Gullibility was what he asked for not criticism. Presumably Jews today who want nothing to do with Jesus whom they see as an imposter are, therefore, a wicked generation. So it is possible to regard Christ's words as spiteful.

His remark about people listening to him not dying before events take place reflects his view of his self-importance. He honestly thought he'd soon come riding back celestially, with God the Great sitting beside him.... on a cloud!

It is a credit to people's ingenuity that so much can be extracted from so little. Jesus was just wrong. End of tale. Amen.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 398 by polonius]

I find the fundamentalist argument not to be creditable. It's much more credible to believe what Jesus actually said.

What specifically is this "fundamentalist argument"?

"Jesus actually said" what, specifically, about "this generation" when he used that term?

RESPONSE: The fundamentalist argument such as the one you are proposing is that Jesus used the term "generation" but not saying which generation he meant so it could be argued that it is any future generation.

But Jesus specified "THIS GENERATION" the present one to which he spoke and than gave examples.

So we have a "God breathed" scripture that is in error. There are others.

[marco]

[Replying to post 398 by polonius]

I find the fundamentalist argument not to be creditable. It's much more credible to believe what Jesus actually said.

What specifically is this "fundamentalist argument"?

"Jesus actually said" what, specifically, about "this generation" when he used that term?

RESPONSE: The fundamentalist argument such as the one you are proposing is that Jesus used the term "generation" but not saying which generation he meant so it could be any future generation.

But Jesus specified "THIS GENERATION" the present one to which he spoke and than gave examples.

So we have a "God breathed" scripture that is in error. There are others.

The important feature of your proposition, Polonius, is that it is exactly what listeners would understand. Other explanations are contrived.

A suspicious saying of the preacher Christ was: a wicked generation rejected him. There are wicked people in the world but people who can't quite believe that spitting on somebody cures blindness are not wicked - just rational beings. Christ was a touch nasty himself for so labelling people.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 398 by polonius]

I find the fundamentalist argument not to be creditable. It's much more credible to believe what Jesus actually said.

What specifically is this "fundamentalist argument"?

"Jesus actually said" what, specifically, about "this generation" when he used that term?

RESPONSE: The fundamentalist argument such as the one you are proposing is that Jesus used the term "generation" but not saying which generation he meant so it could be argued that it is any future generation.

But Jesus specified "THIS GENERATION" the present one to which he spoke and than gave examples.

So we have a "God breathed" scripture that is in error. There are others.

The fundamentalist view you describe is not what I have been proposing.

That is because of your assumption of your own view of what Jesus meant.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 399 by marco]

We are clutching at straws.

Does that "we" include you, or only those who have a view that differs from one you express?

[marco]

[Replying to post 399 by marco]

We are clutching at straws.

Does that "we" include you, or only those who have a view that differs from one you express?

Neither. Nor was I using it regally. I was observing that to get round the conclusion that Jesus was wrong in his prophecy we need to employ a desperate strategy, one that seems wholly inadequate.


But we must blame our perplexity over meaning on those delegated to pass on Christ's message, if not Christ himself. If one has something vitally important to say, it is imperative that one expresses this unambiguously.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 399 by marco]

We are clutching at straws.

Does that "we" include you, or only those who have a view that differs from one you express?

Neither. Nor was I using it regally. I was observing that to get round the conclusion that Jesus was wrong in his prophecy we need to employ a desperate strategy, one that seems wholly inadequate.


But we must blame our perplexity over meaning on those delegated to pass on Christ's message, if not Christ himself. If one has something vitally important to say, it is imperative that one expresses this unambiguously.

Your "neither" answer seems to differ from your subsequent explanation.

[marco]

Your "neither" answer seems to differ from your subsequent explanation.

As Buttercup said in HMS Pinafore: "Things are seldom what they seem." Of course much of what Christ said differs, sometimes violently, from what his later devotees practised.

If Christ was addressing living folk, one would expect his words to have some relevance to them and their time. We have had extreme wickedness throughout history. What particular wickedness is Jesus referring to when he says: "O generation of vipers!" Those who disagree with him? Is that so bad? He's a man driven by his singular idea that he's divinely chosen, as were some English monarchs.

It was a curse and a blessing.