Do Christians despise God?

[Mithrae]

A post from another thread which on reflection might be an interesting topic in its own right:

Other than things like attending Church, etc., again you would be correct [that "Christians live lives much like unbelievers do"]. So then, other than that, what would give you the impression that the lives of Christians would be any different, and how would this have anything at all to do with Christianity being true, or false?

You mean... what would give that impression, besides virtually all of the NT insisting that Christians should be starkly distinguished from the world? Indeed that the world would hate Jesus' followers just as it hated him?

• John 15:16 You did not choose me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in my name he may give to you. 17 This I command you, that you love one another. 18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for my name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent me.
  
  1 John 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. . . . 16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

There is so much poverty and need in the world, while most people in countries like Australia and the US have more wealth than we reasonably know what to do with. How can any Christian claim that the love of God abides in them if they're spending money on houses, cars or a fancy sound system for the building they attend once or twice a week? Jesus not only told his followers to sell their possessions and give to the poor, he even emphasized this as a truly fundamental aspect of the kingdom of God; that retaining treasures on earth or working for money was akin to blinding yourself entirely:

• Luke 12:29 And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying. 30 For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things. 31 But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you. 32 Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
  
  Matthew 6:19 Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. [You cannot work for God if you're working for money.] 25 For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?

According to Jesus' standards, by dividing up their time and spending far more effort working for money than serving God, refusing to trust in him for their daily bread but instead retaining earthly treasures year by year, most Christians are showing that they despise God despite professing him as another master.

Does that have anything to do with Christianity being true or false? Why would anyone imagine it to be true, if even the folk professing to be followers of Christ ignore his teachings? Certainly that hypocrisy and the comfortable irrelevancy of churchianity was one of major reasons why I walked away from "the faith" altogether. Jesus preached a deeply compelling but incredibly difficult message. It may be that Christians' determined efforts to bury and ignore that message do not invalidate it; perhaps even that the ongoing availability of that message despite seventeen-plus centuries of church efforts to subvert and undermine it is a testament to its power. But at least superficially the fact that Christianity as widely practiced looks like little more than a social club, the fact that not even Christians follow Christ, is a constant advertisement implying that there's nothing much to see there.




So was Jesus wrong in his stark dichotomy? Is it possible to spend so much time working for money and retaining earthly treasures, and not actually hate God as Jesus said?

Or does the refusal of most Christians to follow Jesus' teachings in this area have exactly the effect that he said it would: "If your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!" Do most Christians inwardly despise God, perhaps without even realizing the depth of that darkness?

[Goose]

According to Jesus' standards, by dividing up their time and spending far more effort working for money than serving God, refusing to trust in him for their daily bread but instead retaining earthly treasures year by year, most Christians are showing that they despise God despite professing him as another master.

Yes I would agree. It’s something every Christian struggles with, myself included. Christians are in a never ending battle with the flesh.

“For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.� – Galatians 5:17

Does that have anything to do with Christianity being true or false?

Thankfully, no. Christians often set horrible examples, myself included.

Why would anyone imagine it to be true, if even the folk professing to be followers of Christ ignore his teachings?

There are reasons to suppose Christianity is true that are independent from the actions of Christians. And I think ignore is the wrong word if it's meant to apply universally to all Christians. While it is true their are some Christians who outright ignore the teachings of Christ altogether (one must wonder if they really are Christian in this case), there are also a great number of Christians who struggle to follow the teachings of Christ, myself included. So it isn't a case of ignoring necessarily.

Certainly that hypocrisy and the comfortable irrelevancy of churchianity was one of major reasons why I walked away from "the faith" altogether.

That’s too bad. And it pains me to see people abandon the faith because of hypocrisy in the church. It’s not a logical reason to leave the faith, but I can at least understand how it could emotionally compel someone to leave.

Jesus preached a deeply compelling but incredibly difficult message. It may be that Christians' determined efforts to bury and ignore that message do not invalidate it; perhaps even that the ongoing availability of that message despite seventeen-plus centuries of church efforts to subvert and undermine it is a testament to its power. But at least superficially the fact that Christianity as widely practiced looks like little more than a social club, the fact that not even Christians follow Christ, is a constant advertisement implying that there's nothing much to see there.

Fair comments.

[Jagella]

There are reasons to suppose Christianity is true that are independent from the actions of Christians.

Perhaps, but it seems very illogical to believe in a god who is very poor in his ability to inspire people to do what he wants them to do. If the Christian god cannot get people to act in accordance with his commandments, then why believe he can turn water into wine, part seas, raise people from the dead, or create universes? If you understand Christianity as the invention of people and that there are no real gods, then it's very easy to understand why Christianity fails so miserably to make people good.

[Jagella]

So was Jesus wrong in his stark dichotomy? Is it possible to spend so much time working for money and retaining earthly treasures, and not actually hate God as Jesus said?

Or does the refusal of most Christians to follow Jesus' teachings in this area have exactly the effect that he said it would: "If your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!" Do most Christians inwardly despise God, perhaps without even realizing the depth of that darkness?

Martin Luther is one Christian who said he hated God, but I believe he said so as a result of suffering.

As for other Christians, they may show either hatred or anger against their god (it's hard to tell one from the other). But again, these ill feelings probably result from suffering rather than defiance.

In any case, "hating God" is a common accusation that Christians level against atheists. In such cases Christians may be projecting their hatred for God onto atheists.

[Divine Insight]

There are reasons to suppose Christianity is true that are independent from the actions of Christians.

I honestly can't understand how anyone can actually believe this.

When I look at this religious dogma (i.e. the Biblical scriptures) I see a god being described that isn't even as intelligent or wise as many mere mortal human I have met and read about historically. The God depicted in the Old Testament strangely has the same barbaric and unintelligent mentality and behavior as the ancient men who wrote about it. There is no sound reason to believe that the god described in the Old Testament represents any actual God.

When it comes to Christianity and the stories of Christ things don't get any better. Even if we allow that Jesus himself seems to have taught far better moral values than had been taught in the Old Testament, there is still no reason to believe that the master "god" would have planned out this brutal crucifixion scene to be the cornerstone of his religion. And that's exactly what this God would have had to have done. There's no getting around this.

This entire religion is about a god who is so focused on evil that is has become an obsession with him that has taken over any decent qualities he might have otherwise had.

This religion focuses on condemning all humans as being unworthy criminals. And doesn't focus on the good qualifies of humanity at all.

To me, the idea that any decent god could be associated with Christianity is basically an insult to the very concept of a god to begin with. Christianity is an insult to the very concept of "God".

The god of Christianity is apparently obsessed with evil to the point that he has totally destroyed any concept of human decency.

Of course the easy solution to this problem is to simply recognize that there is no god associated with this religion. That solves everything.

Trying to claim that the religion could somehow make sense, or as you have suggested, that there are reasons to believe that it's true, is just absurd.

There's no other way to put it.

Christianity is obsessed with evil and the degradation of humanity. Period.

Also, the idea that to enjoy the physical world is somehow "sinful" is a degradation of life itself.

Christianity denigrates life itself. It trashes life and proclaims living to be a "sin".

It's a man-made religion that has become totally lost in its obsession with sin.

The idea that there are reasons to believe that it's true is just ridiculous, IMHO.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

At this time I do not have time to fully respond. However, you are taking this out of context. Right after the quote you cite of mine, I responded to this,

They (Christians) don't seem any better off or happier than atheists are.

I also had in mind when "marco" commented on having rejected the faith, and "nature is still nature, death still a hazard ahead."

So then my point was, Christians have, and experience the same things unbelievers do, which would mean, "nature, continues to be nature", Christians are nowhere promised they will be "better off", or "happier", and of course, we will experience death just like unbelievers.

This means I was not attempting to say, that we do not live any differently, which is the exact reason I said, "Other than things like attending Church, etc." You see, the "etc." would include at least some of the things you mention, because there is no way I could list all these things, which is why I used the "etc."

So again, when I said, "what would give you the impression that the lives of Christians would be any different" I was referring to, being better off, happier, nature continuing to be nature, and death. In other words, "what would give you the impression that Christian would be better off, happier, and nature would be different for us, and that we would not experience death?

[ttruscott]

There are reasons to suppose Christianity is true that are independent from the actions of Christians.

Perhaps, but it seems very illogical to believe in a god who is very poor in his ability to inspire people to do what he wants them to do.

So you have robot children instead of real children? Real children CAN BE FORCED to behave a certain way but then they are not mentally healthy or at least not as mentally healthy as they could be. HE must bring HIS elect sinners to repentance against their sinful self will without damaging them or making them eternally hostile.

And then there is Cain, the reprobate pew warmer who goes to church but believes in
Satanic things. How GOD treats the reprobate is not the measure of how GOD treats select sinners, nor of his success with elect sinners.

[PinSeeker]

...Do most Christians inwardly despise God, perhaps without even realizing the depth of that darkness?

Well, all people, Christian or not -- in their natural state -- despise God. This is the human condition.

Aside from that, though, I think if you really start thinking about it, you might come to the conclusion that there are really far fewer Christians than claim or profess to be.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

So was Jesus wrong in his stark dichotomy? Is it possible to spend so much time working for money and retaining earthly treasures, and not actually hate God as Jesus said?

Or does the refusal of most Christians to follow Jesus' teachings in this area have exactly the effect that he said it would: "If your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!" Do most Christians inwardly despise God, perhaps without even realizing the depth of that darkness?

I think what you are speaking to here is data/information.

Whatever the data, true, false or something in between, how the data affects the population determines what unfolds according to that.

Jesus appears to have found his fan-base with the poor and downtrodden outcasts/outlaws. This means that the stories would have been crafted specifically toward their receptors.

They identified with a lot of that data Jesus apparently conveyed.

Zoom out to the greater human populace and one can see that not all rich people act out as it were. Many are generous. Things are never that cut and dry absolute.

From a purely politic perspective, the poor are many and potentially very dangerous (predictably in that way) and thus manufacturing a myth which would appeal to them as a way in which to subvert the more natural inclination to rebel, the gospel keeps the poor under relative control.

I think they hate the rich more than they hate GOD. But underneath that all there has to be some still small voice of reasoning which might attempt from time to time to be heard within them, and this translates to hate for GOD who allows this to occur. Hate for GOD disguised as hate for the rich.

It's all data. How the individual chooses to respond to said data is the matter of individual taste, hating GOD or not.

From my own Panentheist perspective, to hate GOD is to hate self is to hate others.

In that light, it is an absolute no-no.

[Mithrae]

[Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

At this time I do not have time to fully respond. However, you are taking this out of context. Right after the quote you cite of mine, I responded to this,

They (Christians) don't seem any better off or happier than atheists are.

I also had in mind when "marco" commented on having rejected the faith, and "nature is still nature, death still a hazard ahead."

So then my point was, Christians have, and experience the same things unbelievers do, which would mean, "nature, continues to be nature", Christians are nowhere promised they will be "better off", or "happier", and of course, we will experience death just like unbelievers.

This means I was not attempting to say, that we do not live any differently, which is the exact reason I said, "Other than things like attending Church, etc." You see, the "etc." would include at least some of the things you mention, because there is no way I could list all these things, which is why I used the "etc."

Most Christians don't live significantly differently from non-Christians. Besides attending Church your "etc." could include a little less indulgence in the most visible 'sins' like drinking, swearing and fornication and perhaps a greater prevalence of more insidious and harmful traits like judgementalism, gossip and factionism. But virtually all Christians have or intend to have jobs, cars, houses and so on, just like everyone else and directly contrary to Jesus' commands to give up your possessions and stop working for money.

All three synoptic gospels suggest that this was a fundamental and non-negotiable aspect of Jesus' teaching. The passage from Matthew 6 quoted above suggests that having treasure on earth and working for money are like a lens through which all you'll see becomes darkness. In Mark 10, when asked what must be done for eternal life, Jesus said "sell all you possess and give to the poor" and "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God." In Luke 14 he even more explicitly said "none of you can be my disciple who does not give up all his own possessions" and comparing so-called followers who didn't do so with flavourless salt, not even worthy of the dung heap.

Yet despite that, in my eight years as a Christian (and years of church attendance with my family as a kid) I'm pretty sure not a single sermon was preached telling the congregation to give up their possessions, and I'm certain that no-one was ever told to quit their jobs!

So... what's up with that? You didn't actually answer the question of the OP. Jesus said that if you're working for money you're trying to serve two masters, and are going to hate one of them. Was Jesus wrong? Or do most Christians despise God, perhaps without even realizing the depth of their own darkness?