Is the Biblical GOD really as some atheists argue?

[William]

This is a question going out to any people who - in their own ways follow after the biblical idea of GOD.

Recently I made a protest about an atheists attitude in relation to their interpretation of the biblical GOD.

The atheist claimed Christians were mindless slaves to a jealous God who lusts to rule over humans and demand that they worship and obey him

[Link To That Post]

My protest basically went along the lines that this was too sweeping a statement in which to base any honest argument on based upon the actual evidence both in the bible and from the behavior of people who call themselves Christians and have individual understandings as to what 'a jealous god' means, or what 'worship' means or whether the GOD actually 'lusts' for what the atheist accuses him of.

As can be read, my argument - as far as I am concern - is pretty solid on this, so I am putting it out there to those who specifically call themselves 'Christians' as to how you each see the GOD of the bible, why you see him that way and whether you believe there is any truth in the atheists claim, as sweeping as it is.

Q: Do you think you are a mindless slave to the biblical GOD?
(If not, then why not?)

Q: Do you think the bible GOD is a jealous GOD in the sense of the negative (being possessive for example) and if not (or if so) please say why you think this, as in, what do you understand it to mean.

Q: Do you think the biblical god 'lusts to rule over humans'?

Q: Do you think the biblical god demands that you worship and obey him?

Q: What do you personally see as 'worshiping GOD' and in what way do you feel that you have to obey him and why do you think that form of obedience is important?


Basically I would like as many answers as possible that a good indication of the overall Christian point of view might be better understood in relation to the biblical idea of GOD and how that might differ from the atheists claims regarding the nature of that god in relation to individual Christians as they interact with him in their own way.

I do not self identify as being a Christian myself, but as can be seen in my post [linked] , I personally do not and cannot see how the God of the Bible can be so grossly misrepresented (as I feel the atheist has done, and as I often see atheists doing) based on either the overall evidence in the bible itself as well as based on the overall evidence of Christian behavior in the world generally speaking.
Not to say that I am suggesting that people calling themselves 'Christians' cannot behave badly, but that behaving badly does not necessarily mean that they are being good Christians or reflecting a good witness to the biblical GOD.


Thank you.

[Divine Insight]

As a past believer in this GOD, related to WHEN YOU WERE A BELIEVER IN THIS IDEA OF GOD. (not after you stopped being a believer in this idea of GOD)

Perhaps read how OnceConvinced answered the questions, intelligently and in line with the OP request and therein follow the example, and answer the questions.

Or;

Leave your opinion out of this thread.

Can you please quote each question as you answer them so as to help the reader understand better.

Thanks

Ok, let me try this again:

Q: Do (did) you think you are (were) a mindless slave to the biblical GOD?
(If not, then why not?)

No, because I wasn't taught at the time that it was about obeying a God. Instead I was taught that it was about having my sins forgiven.

Q: Do (did) you think the bible GOD is (was) a jealous GOD in the sense of the negative (being possessive for example) and if not (or if so) please say why you think this, as in, what do (did) you understand it to mean.

Yes, I did think the Bible GOD was a jealous GOD in the sense of being possessive. That how I perceived the teachings at the time. And I haven't had any reason to change that perception since.

Q: Do (did) you think the biblical god 'lusts to rule over humans'?

I wouldn't have phrased it that way at the time no. However, I was taught that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings.

I confess that I never really thought at the time about why Jesus was so anxious to rule over people. And because of that I didn't actually view Jesus in that way, even though I was taught this perspective.

I actually thought of Jesus more as a "Friend". Like the song, "What a friend we have in Jesus".

In fact, I used to sing these song back then.

Q: Do (did) you think the biblical god demands (demanded) that you worship and obey him?

Absolutely. Especially with regard to the "Father God". I always viewed Jesus as the "Son of God" not as the "Father God" himself. So I never actually viewed Jesus as the one who is demanding to be worshiped. But yes, I was taught that the Father God not only demands to be worshiped, but he was very precise in demanding that he be worshiped in very specific ways via burnt offerings etc.

We taught about the Old Testament God in Sunday School.

Also, I confess that the whole thing was always confusing. And apparently it wasn't just confusing to me but it was confusing to my Sunday School teachers and to the Pastors. Even they openly confessed to have difficulty understanding various aspects of the religion.

So in a sense, you could even say that I was "taught", at lest indirectly, that everyone was confused about this religion by simply noting that they all exhibited confusion over many things, especially when asked to clarify specific points.

Q: What do (did) you personally see as 'worshiping GOD' and in what way do you feel that you have (had) to obey him and why do you think that form of obedience is (was) important?

Well, this is very complex for me to explain because my understanding of what "God" is did not come entirely from this religion. As a very young child I was convinced that God had made himself known to me. And that God was my friend, and that the God I knew was not demanding that I "worship" him at all. It wasn't until I was taught by the church what the Bible has to say that I started hearing about all these different ways that God expects us to worship him, etc. And even all of that was totally unclear and confusing.

Also, our church tended to teach that if we accepted Jesus as our "savior" we would be saved and that Jesus would take care of everything. And I didn't see Jesus as demanding to be constantly worshiped.

So for me personally I saw no need to "worship" the jealous God I was taught about in Sunday School. That was a God who seemed to be ticked off at the ancient Hebrews, not at me.

~~~~~~~

But keep in mind here also that I belonged to a very liberal church. Since that time I've discovered that many other Christian churches do demand that we must "obey" the God of the Old Testament. That's what they TEACH.

So when I post my views on this religion today, I'm not just posting the views I had when I was a Christian. I include the things I've learned about Christendom in general over many decades. As well as the Biblical Scriptures they have held up to support their views.

I see no reason to limit myself to my own personal experience with the church I was born and raised into. Since that time I've looked into the far larger picture of Christendom entirely along with having studied the Bible in far more depth as well.

So when it comes to your question in this thread:

Is the Biblical GOD really as some atheists argue?

Does it really matter what I had been taught as a Christian by one specific church?

Hardly. In fact, the Bible is where we need to look to see what the Bible has to say about this GOD.

And because of this, atheists who were never Christians should still be able to answer your question.

After all why should only the opinion of believers matter?

This is one problem I have with Theology as a whole. Once a theologian no longer believes in the religion, they are no longer considered to be a valid "theologian", now they are branded as "skeptics" or "atheists".

Why should that be? Theologians who come to the conclusion that no God could be behind the Bible should still be considered valid theologians who have simply drawn a reasonable logical conclusion.

To dismiss them as having no credibility to speak to the subject any longer makes no sense. That would be an extremely biased discipline. And I firmly believe that this is in fact what the study of theology is. It's basically just "Bible School" posing as a valid academic subject when it's not. How can it be a valid academic study if it refuses to allow the conclusion that the Bible most likely has nothing to do with any God?

That's a perfectly valid conclusion.

[William]

[Replying to post 11 by Divine Insight]

why should only the opinion of believers matter?

I wanted to hear their particular points of view/opinions in relation to the OP.
I saw that this forum allowed for me to do so.
Questions About a Belief - Getting to know more about a specific belief.


There are plenty of other forums and threads on this message board where you can give your opinions as they matter to you. It was because of one such sweeping opinion which prompted me to start this thread to invite those you gave opinion about, to see what they might have to say for themselves.

You already have had your say re your opinion of them.

Obviously you still have things to say about them, but this is not the purpose of this thread.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 11 by Divine Insight]

why should only the opinion of believers matter?

I wanted to hear their particular points of view/opinions in relation to the OP.
I saw that this forum allowed for me to do so.
Questions About a Belief - Getting to know more about a specific belief.


There are plenty of other forums and threads on this message board where you can give your opinions as they matter to you. It was because of one such sweeping opinion which prompted me to start this thread to invite those you gave opinion about, to see what they might have to say for themselves.

You already have had your say re your opinion of them.

Obviously you still have things to say about them, but this is not the purpose of this thread.

Well, if you were interested in just asking people about their beliefs you could have done that without linking in the OP to a post in other thread where you accuse my posts of being filled with fallacies.

And just to clarify I did not accuse Christians of being "mindless slaves".

I asked why people who don't like Christianity should want to become mindless slaves to a God they don't even approve of.

That's quite a bit different from what you have portrayed it to be.

I just want to clarify that.

[William]

[Replying to post 13 by Divine Insight]

So there it is folks.

You are happy to derail a thread topic just because you are miffed at my linking the OP topic to a post you made which was the reason I created this thread in the first place...to find out if those that you harshly criticized thought about their idea of GOD the way that you do.

Mate!

Ah well. I guess in a roundabout way, the thread had a positive result through the negative misuse anyway.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 13 by Divine Insight]

So there it is folks.

You are happy to derail a thread topic just because you are miffed at my linking the OP topic to a post you made which was the reason I created this thread in the first place...to find out if those that you harshly criticized thought about their idea of GOD the way that you do.

Mate!

Ah well. I guess in a roundabout way, the thread had a positive result through the negative misuse anyway.

Yet another false claim made by you. You did not link in the OP to a post I made. To the contrary you linked to a post YOU MADE where you falsely accuse me of taking a position on things that you have warped into something totally different from my original post.

In your post you state

You contend that...
Christians are "mindless slaves"

Which I never did

In the post you are complaining about I said:

What about people who don't like Christianity? Where is there any attraction in being the mindless slave to a jealous God who lusts to rule over humans and demand that they worship and obey him?

So you have been misreading my posts and then going on a vendetta against me ever since based on your misunderstanding of what I had actually said, despite the fact that I have already pointed out your error to you repeatedly. Even before you started this thread.

Instead of doubling down on your error you should be apologizing for your misunderstanding. Especially after this has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

I do not now, nor have I ever taken the position that Christians are mindless slaves. I'm quite certain that the vast majority of them do not think of Christianity in that way. In fact, as far as I can tell the vast majority of them appear to be worshiping Jesus instead of Yahweh anyway. And Jesus is all about forgiving them for not being willing to be mindless slaves.

[William]

[Replying to post 13 by Divine Insight]

So there it is folks.

You are happy to derail a thread topic just because you are miffed at my linking the OP topic to a post you made which was the reason I created this thread in the first place...to find out if those that you harshly criticized thought about their idea of GOD the way that you do.

Mate!

Ah well. I guess in a roundabout way, the thread had a positive result through the negative misuse anyway.

Yet another false claim made by you.

Do you have the list of these supposed 'false claims' you claim I have made?

You did not link in the OP to a post I made.

Sure - my bad, but the gist of it was that the post I linked to had to do with claims you were making. Splitting hairs about that is somewhat pedantic mate. I am sure anyone reading would be intelligent to work that out.

To the contrary you linked to a post YOU MADE where you falsely accuse me of taking a position on things that you have warped into something totally different from my original post.

Well the purpose of the link was to let the reader know. So the readers can decide for themselves, as they will.

The rest - as they say, is history.

As far as I am concerned, this thread has been derailed.

[Divine Insight]

Do you have the list of these supposed 'false claims' you claim I have made?

Your MAIN CLAIM that I have contended that Christians are mindless slaves. I clearly never said that.

Is it true the I view the Biblical Yahweh in the way I've described. Yes, absolutely! But what's wrong with that? Most Christians don't support Yahweh anyway. Most Christians follow Jesus not Yahweh. In fact, many Christians have the same problems with Yahweh as I do.

I even pointed out in this very thread that Jesus himself apparently did not care much for commandments that had been attributed to Yahweh. He obviously rebuked them himself. A lot of Christians have serious problems with the Old Testament narrative of Yahweh. That's why that would much rather focus on Jesus.

How many Christians do you hear singing praise to Yahweh?

They are far more likely to be singing praise to Jesus!

Can you show me a Christian Song entitled "What a Friend We Have in Yahweh"?

Also, do you see Christians teaching their children to sing:

Yahweh loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.

Nope, they teach their children that Jesus loves them, not Yahweh.

In fact, I claim that the vast majority of Christians don't like Yahweh at all. If you were to ask them to give up Jesus and become Jews who worship Yahweh they would say forget it. They would probably rather become atheists.

Take Jesus out of Christianity and most Christians would tell Yahweh to go jump in his lake of fire. They tend to not like Yahweh anymore than atheists do.

[William]

...With Divine Insight

[Replying to post 17 by Divine Insight]

[Linky]

[Sojournerofthearth]

Q: Do you think you are a mindless slave to the biblical GOD?
(If not, then why not?)

a mindless slave to the biblical God... I'm not sure what that means. According to the bible, if one is so inclined, it says, Rom 6:16  Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? and also, 2Pe 2:19  While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. And lest you assume that this is a New Testament point of view, 1Ki 21:25  But there was no one like Ahab who sold himself to do wickedness in the sight of the LORD, because Jezebel his wife stirred him up. 

The freedom that Christ and Paul speak of is freedom from the sentence of death and the natural consequences of following a way of life outside of the only way that leads to life... eternal life, by constantly striving to go God's way. No where does the bible indicate we are freed by making a "choice" to be a maverick and go your own way. But it always indicates, which ever way you choose to go, it is your own choice and that to "choose" to go the way of God is never mindless. That the broad way, is the way where a man does that which is right in his OWN eyes, and thus becomes enslaved in sin.

Q: Do you think the bible GOD is a jealous GOD in the sense of the negative (being possessive for example) and if not (or if so) please say why you think this, as in, what do you understand it to mean.

I'm not quite certain what that means either, however, the whole bible is about a covenant God made with Adam, who chose to make his own way... after making an agreement that he would go God's way. God then took the covenant to several others over the course of time, ending with Abraham and his descendants. Through Abraham's obedience, God gave an unconditional covenant with his progeny of both rulership and birthrite. He reintroduced the same covenant with the Children of Israel, an actual marriage covenant, they not only agreed to the terms but even signed in blood. They are His people. They swore an oath to that effect. Is he Jealous as in possessive? Yes. He finally divorced them and divested himself of his divinity, came in the form of a man to pay the penalty they incurred so that eventually, He might be able to save them. (See Eze 37:4-13) He then revamped the same covenant with the caveat of giving a Spiritual Israel his spirit in that they could overcome sin (Eze 37:14  I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' ") and that eventually, the rulership of this Earth would no longer be done by men who could not perform the righteous government eternally because men die and men can be corrupted. (Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Dan 7:27  And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.) They made a deal... they swore the lives of themselves and their children to keep it and before the ink dried, they were already turning their backs on their agreement. Jealous? He promised them eternity. He wanted to make them an example to the world of what a blessing it would be to live the way of God. When that didn't work out, He made them an example of what happens to a people who welsh on the deal. They entered into a marriage agreement, and went out on the town every chance they got.

Q: Do you think the biblical god 'lusts to rule over humans'?

I don't know how old you are... I remember my teenage son accusing me of that. Like somehow i got a charge out of telling him no. Like it gave me pleasure to ruin his life by putting blocks in his path. Sometimes he wanted to go out and do things that would eventually end in disaster and I wouldn't allow it... and he accused me of the same thing. I hope that I instilled in him the vision that I notice a lot of the world seems to lack, these days. You have to look beyond the end of the barrel. There are consequences for everything you do. There is a reaction to every action and if you are wise then you stop and contemplate, if I do this...WHAT HAPPENS NEXT. Its hard to get teens to do that... its hard to get people to do that.

Q: Do you think the biblical god demands that you worship and obey him?

Define you? Me personally? Everyone in the whole world? Eventually, the whole world will worship the Biblical God, the Eternal. Currently, the verse springs to mind, John 6:44 No man can come to me but that the Father that sent me draws him...

Q: What do you personally see as 'worshiping GOD' and in what way do you feel that you have to obey him and why do you think that form of obedience is important?

Worshiping God is synonymous with obedience and applying his word to your life, to go to Him in prayer to ask for assistance in overcoming who you are, to implement His law and precepts in your life. It is a desire to live that life and to put that above all other things.
[/quote]

[ttruscott]

Q: Do you think you are a mindless slave to the biblical GOD?
(If not, then why not?)

I can't be - I still sin and GOD cannot create sin no matter what the cults try to sell.

Q: Do you think the bible GOD is a jealous GOD in the sense of the negative (being possessive for example) and if not (or if so) please say why you think this, as in, what do you understand it to mean.

Jealousy cannot be the derogatory sinful emotion that sinners feel but is the righteous emotion of standing up for the respect you have earned and for the emotions you claim and not letting anyone besmirch you.

Q: Do you think the biblical god 'lusts to rule over humans'?

Wow - where did this one come from? No I do not. HIS story of our creation and being cleansed of the evil we chose culminates in the marriage of the holy Church to our GOD...therefore this must be the reason for the whole story of mankind.

Q: Do you think the biblical god demands that you worship and obey him?

I think HE instructs us in the nature of worship and how it is to be expressed. The command is to love and to worship and all commands and laws are given to sinners to prove to them that they cannot keep the command and therefore they are indeed sinners and must repent.