What does Paul mean, when he says

[Elijah John]

Romans 14.33

..for whatever is not of faith is sin.

What does this mean? Is everything a person does during the course of a day a matter of faith? Are mundane activities "of faith"? If not, are mundane things "sin"?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 80 by brianbbs67]

Wasn't circumcision the first tenet of Israel?

1 Corinthians 7:17-19 New International Version (NIV)

Concerning Change of Status
17 Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping Gods commands is what counts.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 80 by brianbbs67]

Wasn't circumcision the first tenet of Israel?

1 Corinthians 7:17-19 New International Version (NIV)

Concerning Change of Status
17 Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping Gods commands is what counts.

No, the first was "Love the Lord with all your heart , all your mind and all your soul" That is the greatest commandment.

What you have to remember when reading Paul is the context. 50AD. Gentiles are coming to the synagogues because of faith in Christ , looking to be converted(Judaism ). So, you had the unclean(gentile, goyim) worshiping with the Jews. All their traditions railed against them associating with the unclean. The problem was, as Yeshua pointed out, Moses' law was not against new converts coming into the synagogue. There were actually rules set up for processing the new people. These were the 4 commands given to the church by James. Why? Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations thosewho preach him in every city, being read in the synagogue every Sabbath.

This was just the beginning for the new converts. They would learn Moses every Sabbath and begin to follow more and more. They would be expected, by some, to get circumsision later when they were ready. Did not Christ say it was better to be circumsized of the heart/spirit?

The sect of Judaism that christ started was called the Way by the remaining apostles. Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and destroyed the Way shortly there after. Rome took over the religion and changed it to suit them.

Should we worship God as He tells us to worship Him, or how man tells us or we decide to worship?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 82 by brianbbs67]
Thing
Paul stated that they weren't allowed to because circumcised. That was the first thing required to move from God fearer to full heirs. It was against the Law to participate in many of the requirements of the Law in an uncircumcised state.

Why would Paul forbid circumcision and still have taught that the rest of the Law was applicable as you seem determined to have us believe?

[tam]

Peace to you,


I am skipping repetitive things (in this and other posts).

Who would invite a Jew or a Muslim to break bread with them, and then turn around and serve something they know that Jew or Muslim cannot (in good conscience) eat?

You don't understand the problem. A Jew or Muslim isn't going to bother because they already know that even if the Christian is going to serve beef instead of swine, the house isn't likely to be kosher. You have no idea what happens when those who have kept kosher all their lives get even the slightest bit of grease from swine. They can become violently ill. They're simply not going to take the chance. They will only go to a home that they know is kosher. Christians will serve pork to their non Jewish guests while offering to serve poultry or beef to their Jewish friends never knowing that the grease from the pork that is being cooked on the same grill will make their Jewish guests sick.

I am sorry Shnarkle, but this is incorrect.

I work in a restaurant. We serve bacon and we serve shellfish. We do not have a separate grill or oven or fryer for non-bacon or non-shellfish items. (We can cook some things in a separate pan in the case of allergies of course, but there is no guarantee).


We serve both Muslims and Jews. In fact we have a significant Muslim clientele (I am not as sure of how large the Jewish clientele is because there is no outward indication, such as the hijab).

Both Muslims and Jews know that we serve bacon (and shellfish) in our restaurant. Both Muslims and Jews RETURN to our restaurant, knowing this. None have ever asked me to make sure their meal is prepared apart from all utensils or fryers, etc, so that there is no possibility of contact with bacon or bacon grease (or shellfish). None have ever indicated even a hint of this fear that you suggest (that they would become violently ill); and the fact that they return indicates that they have certainly not become violently ill.



Jews and Muslims eat at restaurants the same as anyone else. That fact alone should show you that your claims (for which you have provided zero evidence) are incorrect.

If you invite someone into your home, you serve food that they can eat (out of love for your fellow man) even if you know that all food is clean, even if you are permitted to eat anything.

Again, the level of love that is required is beyong your ability to grasp.

This does not even make sense as a response to what I have said.

An observant Jew isn't going to waste their time with those who think they have good intentions.

Thankfully, the love that my Lord has taught me does not cause me to dismiss anyone as a waste of my time, especially not those who are wishing to be kind or to have fellowship.

Love always hopes, yes? Love is patient, love is kind, yes?

Nothing that someone else considers unclean can prevent me from bearing witness to my Lord in any situation I might find myself in and with any people.

It is only those who are given the love of God that can live according to all of God's law. There is no cherry picking with God's laws.

Are you not choosing what parts of the law you believe were added because of transgression? Paul does not say some parts of the law were added because of transgression; he says the law (period) was added because of transgression.

We saw the same thing happen with homosexuality. At first it was "don't judge or persecute what people choose to do behind closed doors". Now it's a parade of people engaging in sodomy in the street in broad daylight. The city of San Francisco refuses to allow law enforcement to arrest anyone engaging in indecent exposure, sodomy, circle jerks, etc. when they have their gay pride parades. "It's all good". So when you are invited to a gay pride parade, they will set aside an area for you to sit where you will not inadvertantly be sodomized or slip and fall in someone's lubrication, even though they know that all sexual activities are acceptable and permitted. Do you see how much love they have? They want to love everyone, and show everyone how much love they have to give. Are you going to accept their invitation?

I am sorry, Shnarkle, but this is rubbish, and again you make claims with no evidence. Here is some actual evidence of a sexual offense having to due with homosexuality and gay pride parades, in San Fransisco.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/arch ... -Fran.html


And please, how can someone be inadvertently sodomized? If a person is "inadvertently" sodomized (aka raped), that would indeed be a crime. Do you have any evidence that rape is being permitted at gay pride parades in SF, or anywhere else?


You will note of course that rape is not limited to any particular brand of sexual orientation. So even if a rape has occurred at a gay pride parade, how does that say anything at all? Rape occurs by all sorts, to all sorts, in all sorts of places, celebrations, homes, etc.

There are many who profess to be Christian who do not drink alcohol (Mormons for example). Do you also not drink alcohol so as to keep from stumbling them?

You better believe it, but this isn't about me. Please try to confine your comments to the topic.

It is about consistency of your claims.

What about vegetarians, who are perhaps stumbled by your eating meat (if indeed you eat meat)?

It's so difficult to find a healthy piece of meat today, there's no point in bothering anymore. Unless you can get it in the wild, you're better off eating just vegetables, and non-GMO only.

This is not an answer to the question, and this is not on topic.

Are we speaking about Paul and what he has to say about food, or are we speaking about healthy food in the world today?



Both of your answers seem to also avoid the point below:

Or do you simply not serve them such things, and perhaps refrain from consuming such things in their presence (depending upon their preference).

It doesn't matter if they're present or not.

On the point that we are discussing, it does matter.

You're taking your life in your hands eating meat today. It's getting to be the same story with vegetables as well. Grow your own, if you value your own health. How does this argument work with regards to sodomy?

You tell me. You're the one making that connection.

Do we accept anyone and everyone into our churches if they are polite enough to keep their incestuous sexual relationships hidden during church services?

The Church is the Body of Christ, not some sect or denomination or religion. He is the One who chooses who enters into His Body.

It is not up to us; it is up to Him.

Dietary laws are not the reason Jews and Muslims do not accept the Christian faith.

Straw man argument. I'm not claiming that keeping one law will convert Jews or Muslims.

Neither would keeping ALL the laws. Christ kept all the laws and was rejected.

I think you have said yourself (or repeated Christ, rather) that no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

One main concern for them is the teaching of the trinity doctrine (a valid concern). I do not know if you hold to that doctrine or not, but if you do, are you going to set it aside for those who cannot accept it?

Sure, it's not required for salvation. There is no place in the bible where anyone requires a belief in the doctrine of the trinity to be saved.

I did not ask if you were going to set aside some requirement to believe it; I asked if you are going to set the doctrine itself aside?

Dietary issues were also not the concern for those who rejected Christ (in the flesh) two thousand years ago,

That is only because the converts had no problem keeping the dietary laws. The only issue was with regards to some still feeling it was okay to eat or drink blood. That is why it was mentioned.

A - Paul did not go to the apostles to deal with an issue of gentiles eating or drinking blood. He went to the apostles because some men said gentiles must be required to get circumcised and to obey the law of Moses.

B - I was referring to before the time that gentiles started coming to Christ.

Those who justify lawlessness are going to be shunned by those who value God's commandments.

No one is trying to justify lawlessness.

Christ did not preach shunning, btw. One might want to consider that shunning is against love (and love is the law). Christ preached forgiveness, mercy (I desire mercy, not sacrifice), both in word and in deed.

He did not preach shunning or condemnation or judgment.

He did say that 'by the measure you use, it will be used against you."

Just because the person doesn't see what they're doing as sin, doesn't change the fact that it is sin. Unless you believe God will set up a kingdom with a caste system, there is no "least" in the kingdom.

Christ said that some would be called least in the Kingdom.

I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."


He also said,

"Whatever you did for even a least one of these brothers of mine, you did for me."

Not that this should matter, since we are called to serve God and His Son, and one another, in love. And the Kingdom is the Kingdom (everyone - from the least to the greatest - receives eternal life, everyone is under the blessing of 'no more tears or mourning', everyone eats from the Tree of Life, and the healing from the leaves of that tree are for the nations).


In the Kingdom, there are also some who reign with Christ as kings and priests (Rev 20:6) for a thousand years and there are some who enter as subjects of the Kingdom (none of these who enter as subjects were Christian).

In the following, please note that Paul is not rebuking Cephas for eating with Gentiles or for living like a Gentile.


When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? Galatians 2:11-1

You haven't made a point here. You still need to connect the dots. So far, you haven't done that. Do you assume that refraining from murder, incest, fornication, theft, etc. are Jewish customs? Do you believe that refraining from adutery is a Jewish custom? How about building a home that is safe to inhabit? God's commandments are more than just customs.

Everything there with the exception perhaps of fornication (not sure how people define that), is covered under the law (that is love).

Love does not commit murder or theft, love does build a home that is safe to inhabit (as much as one is capable of doing this of course); love does not commit adultery.


However, you seem to have missed a significant point:

Here's the problem. In ancient Celtic and British societies, it was customary to copulate as a form of introduction. This was especially prevalent among monarchs, and is well documented. Do you see how one man's custom is another man's sin? Paul is explicitly referring to Jewish "customs". He is not referring to commandments at all. Violating a Jewish tradition doesn't require a sin offering.

Just because Peter is living like a gentile doens't mean he's not keeping kosher. Paul didn't say a thing about what Peter was eating. He made no references to his diet because that's not just some custom. It's the law of God.

What Christians would have us all believe is that Peter is sitting down with Gentiles and telling them to fork over their pork chops and watch as he eats pork in front of them.

I never said what Peter was eating either, but you will note that Peter was indeed eating with Gentiles. Regardless of what he was or was not eating, he certainly did not allow what they were eating to keep him from sitting down and eating with them.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[postroad]

[Replying to post 82 by brianbbs67]
Are

Are we in agreement that Paul forbade Gentiles to be circumcised. If so the the whole of the Law is set aside for Jewish and Gentile alike.

Otherwise the thing that Paul spoke against would be a requirement for the Jewish believers. They would have been required to distance themselves from the uncircumcised.

Numbers 15:15-16 New International Version (NIV)

15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 82 by brianbbs67]
Are

Are we in agreement that Paul forbade Gentiles to be circumcised. If so the the whole of the Law is set aside for Jewish and Gentile alike.

Otherwise the thing that Paul spoke against would be a requirement for the Jewish believers. They would have been required to distance themselves from the uncircumcised.

Numbers 15:15-16 New International Version (NIV)

15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.

I don't see Paul as forbidding it. Its just not necessary for salvation as Christ put it.(better to be circumsized of the heart) Paul points out that there is no difference between the Un and the Circumed as God views them. IE, circumsistion is an outward display of a belief and following of God. Says no thing of your heart. So, your circumsision doesn't save you. Christ saves us. Being circumsized is an outward display of your faith but only holds water if your inside follows also.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 85 by postroad]

This is the whole Acts 15 debate we are discussing. You have to identify who the groups are that argued. The first group which came from Judea, said you can't be saved unless you're circumsised.

The second group which were Pharisees in Jerusalem who believed said, They must be circumcised to follow the law. This was the whole debate. Nothing else.

James reminded everyone that conversion is a process and very minor rules were imposed in the beginning(as outlined in the law, look to the Noahide law and Moses) as "Moses is taught every Sabbath". So, the gentiles got their first instructions as Moses would be taught every week. And they would learn and grow in faith of God.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 87 by brianbbs67]

1 Corinthians 7:17-19 New International Version (NIV)

Concerning Change of Status
17 Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping Gods commands is what counts.


Seems odd that Paul would indicate that keeping God's commands was important while forbidding the first step which allowed someone to fully obey the 614?

Which placed a dividing wall between those who kept the full Law and the Gentile believers.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.

Leviticus 24:22
You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the Lord your God.

Numbers 15:16
The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.

Numbers 15:29
One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.

Interesting that he declares that he ino longer under the Law even if he acted as if he had been

1 Corinthians 9:20-22 New International Version (NIV)

20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from Gods law but am under Christs law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

Was Jesus as a Jew stiill under the Law after he died and was resurrected?

New International Version (NIV)

Released From the Law, Bound to Christ
7 Do you not know, brothers and sisters"for I am speaking to those who know the law"that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The Law and Sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, You shall not covet. 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 87 by brianbbs67]

The fact that Paul forbids circumcision would nullify this prophecy. Only those circumcised could enter the Temple.

New International Version (NIV)

Salvation for Others
56 This is what the Lord says:

Maintain justice
and do what is right,
for my salvation is close at hand
and my righteousness will soon be revealed.
2 Blessed is the one who does this"
the person who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it,
and keeps their hands from doing any evil.
3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say,
The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.
And let no eunuch complain,
I am only a dry tree.
4 For this is what the Lord says:

To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant"
5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will endure forever.
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to minister to him,
to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant"
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.
8 The Sovereign Lord declares"
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 74 by shnarkle]

No one seems to be able to distinguish between STONE tablets INSIDE the Ark of the Covenant which are "for" our benefit from a SCROLL placed BESIDE the Ark of the Covenant that was a "witness against us". Deuteronomy 31:26

And upon which of these are the dietary laws written?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy