They decide which texts are literal and which are allegory. They decide what a word really means.
I find it a bit depressing. I could even cope with it if they came to a consensus. I'm thinking of Paul's use of the Hebrew Scriptures. He simply had no respect for context or even the correct rendering?
Apologists will claim he had the authority under Holy Spirit to do so. Are believers claiming the same authority when they bend the texts to fit their beliefs?
Is that what is meant by Spiritual discernment?
I find it particularly disturbing when I'm accused of eisegesis when assuming the literal interpretation of a text. I'm required to defend the plain reading and accused of attempting to force the text into a preconceived interpretation simultaneously?
What's the point of debating with Christians?
Moderator: Moderators
-
PinSeeker
- Banned
- Posts: 2920
- Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
- Has thanked: 53 times
- Been thanked: 74 times
Post #71
Nope. Repentance inevitably follows belief. Which I was very clear on in my response to Bust Nak in Post 57. Try to keep up. Wow.Tcg wrote:PinSeeker wrote:But you're changing what I said, putting words in my mouth. I never said this. So in effect, indirectly, you're proving my point. I only said there is no disagreement among Christians regarding what the single salvific belief of Christians -- Jesus and Him crucified. And there is none.Tcg wrote:Christians do not all agree on issues involving salvation.
In post 42 you stated this:
"That Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and that in Him alone can we rest in as our Savior, and that repentance of sin is necessary. Repent and believe. Perhaps you missed the term "salvific," or it went over your head. There is no disagreement on that."
So is it "repent and belief" as you stated in post 42 which contains two components, or is it "Jesus and Him crucified" as you are now claiming is this "single salvific belief".
It appears that it is in fact you who are putting words in your mouth that you never said.
-
Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8667
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2257 times
- Been thanked: 2369 times
Post #72
PinSeeker wrote:Nope. Repentance inevitably follows belief. Which I was very clear on in my response to Bust Nak in Post 57. Try to keep up. Wow.Tcg wrote:PinSeeker wrote:But you're changing what I said, putting words in my mouth. I never said this. So in effect, indirectly, you're proving my point. I only said there is no disagreement among Christians regarding what the single salvific belief of Christians -- Jesus and Him crucified. And there is none.Tcg wrote:Christians do not all agree on issues involving salvation.
In post 42 you stated this:
"That Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and that in Him alone can we rest in as our Savior, and that repentance of sin is necessary. Repent and believe. Perhaps you missed the term "salvific," or it went over your head. There is no disagreement on that."
So is it "repent and belief" as you stated in post 42 which contains two components, or is it "Jesus and Him crucified" as you are now claiming is this "single salvific belief".
It appears that it is in fact you who are putting words in your mouth that you never said.
I am keeping up.
Your newest claim is that the "single salvific belief" is "Jesus and Him crucified" which mentions neither repentance nor belief.
So which are you claiming now, "repent and belief" or "Jesus and Him crucified"?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
-
PinSeeker
- Banned
- Posts: 2920
- Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
- Has thanked: 53 times
- Been thanked: 74 times
Post #73
Okay, then why are you changing what I said?Tcg wrote:I am keeping up.
What I said when I said "Jesus" encompasses "Jesus and Him crucified."
And repentence inevitably follows that. I have not been unclear. Or inconsistent. In any way.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8667
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2257 times
- Been thanked: 2369 times
Post #74
You changed what you said, not me.
Given that fact, I ask again, "So which are you claiming now, "repent and belief" or "Jesus and Him crucified"?"
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
-
Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8667
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2257 times
- Been thanked: 2369 times
Post #76
This doesn't answer my question.
I think it is clear. If not, please explain why it isn't and I'll try to rephrase it for you.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
-
PinSeeker
- Banned
- Posts: 2920
- Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
- Has thanked: 53 times
- Been thanked: 74 times
Post #77
What are you even talking about, here, TCG? Do you even know? We're not discussing you being clear or unclear about anything.Tcg wrote: I think it is clear. If not, please explain why it isn't and I'll try to rephrase it for you.
I said above (and I quote):
What I said when I said "Jesus" encompasses "Jesus and Him crucified."
And repentence inevitably follows that. I have not been unclear. Or inconsistent. In any way.
-
Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8667
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2257 times
- Been thanked: 2369 times
Post #78
PinSeeker wrote: We're not discussing you being clear or unclear about anything.
Great. Then I'll look forward to your answer to this question:
Your newest claim is that the "single salvific belief" is "Jesus and Him crucified" which mentions neither repentance nor belief.
So which are you claiming now, "repent and belief" or "Jesus and Him crucified"?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
-
PinSeeker
- Banned
- Posts: 2920
- Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
- Has thanked: 53 times
- Been thanked: 74 times
Post #79
See post 72 and 76 above. Good day, Tcg.Tcg wrote:PinSeeker wrote: We're not discussing you being clear or unclear about anything.
Great. Then I'll look forward to your answer to this question:
Your newest claim is that the "single salvific belief" is "Jesus and Him crucified" which mentions neither repentance nor belief.
So which are you claiming now, "repent and belief" or "Jesus and Him crucified"?
-
Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8667
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2257 times
- Been thanked: 2369 times
Post #80
PinSeeker wrote:See post 72 and 76 above. Good day, Tcg.Tcg wrote:PinSeeker wrote: We're not discussing you being clear or unclear about anything.
Great. Then I'll look forward to your answer to this question:
Your newest claim is that the "single salvific belief" is "Jesus and Him crucified" which mentions neither repentance nor belief.
So which are you claiming now, "repent and belief" or "Jesus and Him crucified"?
I've seen them and read them.
Neither post answers my question.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
