Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

[Jagella]

Consider this story from Numbers 15:32-36(NRSV):

When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.� The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Question for Debate: If you were there with these Israelites, would you stone this man in obedience to Moses and to Yahweh?

Keep in mind that this man may have been gathering sticks to build a fire to cook for for his family and to keep them warm. After the Bible god had him killed, any wife he had would be left a widow and any children he had would be left without a father to provide for them. They would be left cold, hungry, and facing poverty. Any friends he had among the Israelites would be obligated to kill their friend.

Despite these consequences of Yahweh's order to stone the man to death, all the Jews and by extension all Christians coming later must obey the Bible god. Any objections you have to this cruel act are nothing to Yahweh and may even result in a similar punishment for disobedience to him. You have a god you must believe in and obey without question and without reason.

I predict that few if any of the Christians here will answer this question honestly and sensibly. To post such an answer is to expose Christian beliefs for what they are.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

If you were wandering through the wilderness and every resource is vital for your tribe's survival, you too might make harsh penalties for seemingly small infractions.

We are all only 2 days of not eating from discovering what we are really like.

This rule reminds me of the tight discipline needed on board ships or the harsh punishments for prisoners in prison when they violate simple rules. The discipline needed to survive as a whole often necessitates harsh punishments for small issues.

Speaking of which, if i chop a tree down in my front yard the local council can take me to court and fine me 10s of thousands. Actually i wonder what other ridiculous punishments our societues have for small infractions?

Jagella are you aware of any?

The UK police is policing memes. Isnt the European union actually writing laws to police memes? Article 13.

[JehovahsWitness]

.
In real life I have always been a Maverick – “Unbranded animal, not of the herd�. With those same personality traits projected backward two thousand years, I would not likely have always obeyed orders any better than I did during military service (which resulted in some difficulty at times).

More likely, I would have been one who gathered firewood whenever I darn well felt like – and if real life is any indication, would not have been arrested.

Being disinclined to follow the herd is quite liberating

Then you would not have lived long. Indeed there is a biblical term for "mavericks" of that description...its called dead.

Unless you also believed you would have the same super powers you presumably presently employ to avoid arrest for not paying taxes, driving at any speed on any side of thread you like, not showing your drivers license to men in uniform with guns, going around not through baggage inspection at airports, ... oh and turning up to work when you please (if at all), smoking in non-smoking areas, not vaccinating your children and walking naked in public whenever you d*** well please ... you big bad maverick you!

[1213]

You're not answering my question: how is gathering sticks on Saturday attempted genocide?

I am sorry, if am so unclear with this that you can’t understand. But I try to say it once more. It is not really about the act itself, but about the state of mind that makes person brake the rules. The real problem is in the mind. Person who brakes the rules doesn’t just brake the rules, he rejects the rulers also. Basically he says, I am the one who decides what is the law, not they. And in some cases, it is not necessary bad, but anyway, there is deeper thing going on. And when people begin to undermine the authority of the rulers, they also begin to undermine the order of the nation. And when that happens, it can lead to destruction of the whole nation. In Biblical point of view it happens also, because then the people lose the blessings that were promised and the nation becomes weak and can be destroyed by other nations. And in secular nation also, if the authority of rulers vanishes, also the order will vanish and if the order vanishes, nation has also vanished, there is just people going by their own rules. (I am not saying this is bad always, only what will happen).

All though the act of picking up sticks is not great, it tells that the person has rejected the authorities. And if it would have been accepted and the person would have shown that example to others, it would have weakened the whole nation. And when the nation is weakened, it can be easily destroyed. (Please notice also the situation, they had just escaped from Egypt and it was fragile situation for the whole nation to survive at all). That is why, what the person really did was really bad and could have led the whole nation to destruction, also to destruction of the people (genocide). And it can be seen treasonous, because it is service to the enemies of the nation and can lead to destruction of the people.

I don’t believe the reason for the judgment was the act itself, I believe it was that the person was not righteous. It seems to me that the person didn’t have wisdom of the just, he didn’t care what happens to other people, he was selfish and evil. And that is the real reason for the judgment. If he would not have been unrighteous and evil and would have made the same act, it could have been forgiven and it would not have led to same judgment.

Actually, in America we have a lot of really stupid laws on the books that people disobey all the time.

Things don’t necessary happen fast, but I am sure even the greatest nations or states will collapse, if there is no order, and law and those who set the laws loses significance. Luckily it is usually not by one wrong act. If people in America ignore the law and live by their own rules, it is good news for their enemies.

But it is interesting question, why are there those “stupid laws�, if people disobey them anyway? I can believe that people make stupid laws, but if people understand they are stupid, the laws should be removed. There is really only one law that would be necessary and it is “love your neighbor as yourself�, all other is not very smart. And actually, it is also said:

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."
- Publius Tacitus

If nation has more than the one intelligent law, it is probably corrupted and perhaps should vanish.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 92 by 1213]

The real problem is in the mind. Person who brakes the rules doesn’t just brake the rules, he rejects the rulers also. Basically he says, I am the one who decides what is the law, not they. And in some cases, it is not necessary bad, but anyway, there is deeper thing going on. And when people begin to undermine the authority of the rulers, they also begin to undermine the order of the nation. And when that happens, it can lead to destruction of the whole nation.

You don't know this. This is all supposition on your part, an elaborate series of justifications for the bashing in the man's head. After all, if the entire situation literally was just about him picking up sticks, none of this "undermining order of the nation business", would you still think he should be killed?
Your rhetoric here just leads to the logical conclusion that any and ALL violators of laws should be immediately executed.

All though the act of picking up sticks is not great, it tells that the person has rejected the authorities.

Again, supposition. Besides, is rejecting authority a capital offense? There are plenty of people in the USA who say "Trump is not my president", should they be shot?

And if it would have been accepted and the person would have shown that example to others, it would have weakened the whole nation. And when the nation is weakened, it can be easily destroyed.

So rather than let a stick-picker-upper weaken the nation, you'd rather the entirely intelligible solution of...weakening the nation by killing all the criminals.

(Please notice also the situation, they had just escaped from Egypt and it was fragile situation for the whole nation to survive at all).

Agreed, it's not like there was a god leading them by the hand, raining down blessings and mana from heaven.

That is why, what the person really did was really bad and could have led the whole nation to destruction, also to destruction of the people (genocide). And it can be seen treasonous, because it is service to the enemies of the nation and can lead to destruction of the people.

What enemies? Was the man giving the sticks to enemy tribes?
You're going to extremes because it is only in extremes that the execution of stick-picker-uppers can even remotely be justified. In your head, this man is a monster, a rebel working at cross-purposes with the tribe, an evil sick twisted individual because only then can you justify to yourself his execution.

I don’t believe the reason for the judgment was the act itself, I believe it was that the person was not righteous.

This is not in the text. This is a supposition on your part. Apparently unrighteous people, no matter how petty their acts, deserve to die.
Look at what this religion has you doing. In real life, you wouldn't presume a person who violates a petty law to be someone working to commit genocide. You wouldn't presume him to be working with the enemies of the nation. You'd give him the benefit of the doubt. You'd agree with a small punishment, such as a few days or a few months in prison or maybe community service.
However, when this God thing enters the picture, when the law is claimed by others to have come from a God...all that goes out the window. Now you're thinking the absolute WORST of your fellow man. Now you're thinking this man is guilty of the worst crimes imaginable.
This is what turns me off from your religion. Rather than uniting mankind in peace and brotherhood...it sets us apart. It has you terrified to extremes. Rather than listening to the rhetoric of the religion, take a moment to listen to what you and the other Christians here have admitted to. I can't bring myself to kill someone, at least not just for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week. But you and the others...? Geez louise the threshold for murder is astonishingly low!

t seems to me that the person didn’t have wisdom of the just, he didn’t care what happens to other people, he was selfish and evil.

I didn't read this part before my screed up above. I predicted it. By their fruits ye shall know them: good advice. And I see the fruits in this thread.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 87 by ttruscott]

Do you misconstrue the story for sarcastic or dramatic effect?

bloodthirsty mob hardly describes being brought to the judges and elders of the whole camp so as to decide what should be done with him...

I suppose the mob that picked up sticks and immediately proceeded to bash in the man's head after hearing orders from their prophet and/or God did so with complete sobriety (in terms of emotion, not alcohol)? Is this what you want to suggest?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 85 by PinSeeker]

Oh, but I do. As I said several times before, the wages for sin is death, per God. Now, that's not the case today, of course, because Jesus (God Himself in the flesh) bore that punishment once and for all on our behalf. Yours, too, atheist or no.

Pin, I'd like to ask you this. Let's say we're still living in the current year, but Jesus has yet to come, he hasn't incarnated (first coming, not the second). The law is still in effect. Are you saying that the thing that prevents you from joining in the mob hurling stones at the stick-picker-upper is simply the lack of a god man being nailed to a pole?

[Jagella]

I am sorry, if am so unclear with this that you can’t understand.

Your reply to my question was very long-winded and convoluted. When asked why gathering sticks on Saturday is attempted genocide, then a good answer might be: the reason gathering sticks on Saturday can lead to genocide is due to reasons A, B, and C. See that? Just address the issue of gathering sticks on Saturday, then explain how you can logically conclude that gathering those sticks may cause genocide.

It is not really about the act itself, but about the state of mind that makes person brake the rules. The real problem is in the mind. Person who brakes the rules doesn’t just brake the rules, he rejects the rulers also. Basically he says, I am the one who decides what is the law, not they. And in some cases, it is not necessary bad, but anyway, there is deeper thing going on.

You're going wrong here because I was asking about gathering sticks, and rather than address that specific issue, you speak about general lawlessness. Please address the particular issue of gathering sticks on Saturday.

And when people begin to undermine the authority of the rulers, they also begin to undermine the order of the nation. And when that happens, it can lead to destruction of the whole nation.

Actually, nations are often built on undermining the authority of rulers. America was birthed when the colonists got fed up with King George III and overthrew his rule. The new nation grew and thrived. According to our constitution, any political leader can be removed from office because we know that leaders can become cruel despots. I just wish that religious people could understand this practice. Authority is not morality, and the Bible god is not moral just because he supposedly has authority.

Please notice also the situation, they had just escaped from Egypt and it was fragile situation for the whole nation to survive at all

Yes, and the Israelites had rebelled against the authority of Pharaoh! So your example here illustrates that you are wrong and that rebelling against authority can build nations rather than destroy them.

There is really only one law that would be necessary and it is “love your neighbor as yourself�, all other is not very smart.

If I love my neighbor, then I'm not going to bash his head in with rocks!

[PinSeeker]

Pin, I'd like to ask you this. Let's say we're still living in the current year, but Jesus has yet to come, he hasn't incarnated (first coming, not the second). The law is still in effect. Are you saying that the thing that prevents you from joining in the mob hurling stones at the stick-picker-upper is simply the lack of a god man being nailed to a pole?

No, that's not what I'm saying, Riko. No offense, but this question doesn't even make sense. I've been very clear. I get that you're trying to wriggle out of that hole you've dug for yourself, but I can't help you... Unless you want to be helped, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Peace, man.

[William]

A question for those arguing that the action is justified for the purpose of 'National Security' would you be willing to argue the same for Islamic nations still occupied in practices involving the death penalty for those who disobey what they are told "GOD" demands?

[PinSeeker]

"National security"??? Who's arguing that? My goodness.