Jesus is God

[For_The_Kingdom]

First of all, I never knew that so many suspected "unbelievers" in the Christian religion were so fascinated about whether or not Jesus is God. If you don't believe in Jesus or God, then why do you care? It blows my mind.

Anyway..

I have a Biblically simplistic way of proving that Jesus is God..

Argument from Perfection: The Bible is clear, Jesus was/is without sin (morally perfect). The argument goes like this..

1. Only God is without sin
2. Jesus is without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

#1 is virtually undisputed. #2 is Biblical based on two immediate Scriptures..

a. 2 Corin 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".

b. Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin".

Now, the idea is; if you replace Jesus' name in #2 with ANY other name in Heaven or on Earth, the proposition becomes false and the entire syllogism is false.

The conclusion is simple; in order to be God, you must be without sin..and to be without sin, you must be God. Jesus meets/met those requirements, therefore, Jesus is God.

Argument from John 14:1-9: Long story short, Jesus was constantly preaching/lecturing about "The Father this, The Father that"...until Philip finally said "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be good enough"...and Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

Jesus is saying that seeing him is the same has seeing the Father...but if the Father is on SUCH A HIGH PEDESTAL and is light years ahead of any other entity in Heaven or on Earth, how dare Jesus say "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

In other words, if the Father took on human form and made his dwelling among us on Earth, his form would be Jesus.

If the Father is God, and Jesus said to see him is to see the Father, then Jesus must also be God. This just follows logically.

Argument from Hebrews 1:3: "The Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of his being.."

This is the same reasoning applied to Heb 4 (above). If God is the holiest of all holiest, how can any other being come close, must less be the "exact representation" of his being?

How can you be the "exact representation" of someone that is the epitome of holiness/righteousness...unless you yourself is also the epitome of holiness/righteousness?

Actually, you can sum up all three arguments as the "Argument from Perfection"..and of course, there are plenty of other "Trinity proof" Scriptures that I can throw in there, but I wanted to attack this from a different angel.

And lastly, as much as these arguments harmonize, they are all independent...so even if you manage to wiggle your way out of one...you still have to deal with the others.

Actually, there is no way out; Jesus is God, whether we like it or not.

[For_The_Kingdom]

First of all......where in the Bible does it say that "only God is without sin"??

Um, did not Paul say "there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". (Rom 3:22-23).

So, does God himself fall in this "all" category? Obviously, not.

Sadly, your religious instructors have failed you.

Wait a minute, don't get you your religious "instructions" from the Watchtower & Tract Society?

The irony.

You were told a falsehood. Nowherein the Bible does it say that only God is without sin.

No HUMAN is without sin, but there are millions of ANGELS that are without sin. When God made Adam, he made him without sin. Adam only became sinful when he disobeyed God.

So your premise from the start is flawed.

My premise is based upon no created being having the ability to follow God's laws perfectly. If you think any created being can follow God's laws perfectly, then you are implying that some created beings are perfect.

If some created beings are perfect, and God is perfect, then that is implying that created beings have the SAME level of perfection as God..and the point is, God has no equal's when it comes to moral perfection.

Who can boast and say "My ways are just as perfect as God's"...no man on Earth, nor any angel in Heaven can make this claim.

Yet, Jesus can make the claim, not just by his words, but his actions. In order for your ways to be as perfect as God, you must actually be God. And that is the point.

Jesus is God.

Second, it is YOUR premise that is flawed. Your premise is that angels are without sin, when no where in the Bible does it state that. If angels are free creatures, then of course they have the ability to sin, and if they have the ability to disobey God, then it is only a matter of time before they disobey God...in the SAME manner that it was only a matter of time before Adam disobeyed God (being a free creature and all).

If you think that angels are without sin, then you are putting angels level of benevolence on the same level as the Almighty God, which is blasphemous.

Besides God (who is the Father and the Father ONLY), Jesus and all the angels are without sin, and all of mankind would be also if Adam had not disobeyed and passed sin and death on to his offspring.

Please give me the Scripture which states that angels are without sin.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to For_The_Kingdom]

You are depending too much on what the Catholics began to teach decades after the fact, while I am depending on what PAUL was teaching from the very beginning of Christianity.

Not at all. It was taught from the beginning that Jesus established a church to whom He gave authority and told us to listen. This was evident from the beginning.

Paul said, WE ALL SIN. Point blank, period. No exceptions.

Sorry, one could use a similar argument/reasoning for just about every sentence written in the Bible and yet we all know the Bible as a whole must be considered and understood. There are many phrases/expressions in the Bible that have varying meaning. Good thing Jesus left us His Church to clarify such things.

No, he left us the Holy Spirit to "lead us into all truth", John 16:13.

[For_The_Kingdom]

[Replying to For the Kingdom]

Secondly, when Jesus said that if you've seen him you've seen the Father, he only meant that he so closely resembled the Father in word and deed that anyone could say that they see the Father in him. Colossians tells us that Jesus perfectly REFLECTS the Father (God).....the IMAGE of God, not God.

Question, simple question; If Jesus was to come to earth, would seeing and being with Jesus be just as good as seeing and being with the Father?

Yes/No?

He said that seeing him, you know what God is like, because he has copied God in every way.

You can't copy something that is holy and righteous (God) in "every" way, unless you yourself are holy and righteous in "every" way.

And to be holy and righteous in "every" way, is to be God.

"He is the image of the invisible God." (Col.1:15) You can't be OF something and at the same time BE that something.

That's the point!!! If God made himself visible, in human form...he would be JESUS!! That is the entire point; Jesus is the physical, visible image of the immaterial, invisible God.

God's human manifestation is Jesus Christ!!

Jesus also plainly indicated that he COPIED his Father, and whatever the Father did, he did as well. Jesus LEARNED from the Father:

"The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does in like manner." (John 5:19)

Yeah, but you can't copy something perfect in every way, if you yourself aren't perfect in every way.

And besides, Jesus only made that statement AFTER the events of Phil 2:5-9.

If you appreciate what Jesus was saying here, then all your other misunderstandings will become straightened out.

The irony..

[polonius]

onewithin posted:

Jesus also plainly indicated that he COPIED his Father, and whatever the Father did, he did as well. Jesus LEARNED from the Father:

"The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does in like manner." (John 5:19)

RESPONSE: Here we run into a disproof of the existence of a Trinity. The three persons of the trinity are supposed to be co-eternal,of the same substance, and co-equal.

If the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, he clearly is not coequal to the Father.

[For_The_Kingdom]

The Apostle John did not call Jesus God.

He never did, not even at John 1:1. If someone were to research that, they would see that the Greek has been sloppily translated there by almost every translator, copying the KJV tradition.

Do you really want someone to research JW's rendition of John 1:1? If they did, they will find a gross mistranslation of the verse. In fact, the logic that they use to justify such a mistranslation, if you apply that logic (grammatically) elsewhere in the Scriptures, you will run into a lot of problems. But of course, the justification is only applied to John 1:1, because it has to fit JW theology, which is that Jesus isn't God.

But if you translation the verse correctly, you will find out that if we simply let the Bible author speak for himself, you will find out EXACTLY the message that the author wanted to portray...and that is; Jesus is God.

At John 20:28 he was simply reporting what Thomas said, but what he said is not clear. He could have been merely saying something in exasperation, just as we say, "Oh my God!" when seeing or hearing something hard to understand or believe.

Yes, it was Thomas, not John who said that. However, this whole "exasperation" thing that you are alluding to just won't work in light of what the Scripture actually state.

The scripture reads simple; it states that Thomas said "My Lord and My God" to Jesus.


Nowhere else in Scripture do any of Jesus' disciples say anything like that. In fact, John himself says at the end of chapter 20 that "these things have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name."

John did not say that Jesus is God but that he is THE SON OF God. If he believed that Jesus was God, surely he would have said "that you may believe that Jesus is God."

There are so many verses that show that Jesus is subordinate to the Father, who is God, and yet people pick out vague, unclear verses to prove their point that Jesus is God. It is sad.

Jesus' disciples went on to teach that God is superior to Jesus, so Jesus could not BE God.

"...The head of Christ is God." (I Corinth. 11:3)[/quote]

[myth-one.com]

onewithin posted:

Jesus also plainly indicated that he COPIED his Father, and whatever the Father did, he did as well. Jesus LEARNED from the Father:

"The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does in like manner." (John 5:19)

RESPONSE: Here we run into a disproof of the existence of a Trinity. The three persons of the trinity are supposed to be co-eternal, of the same substance, and co-equal.

If the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, he clearly is not coequal to the Father.

Is Jesus really part of the Trinity?

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Jesus is not the Word.

Jesus is the Word made flesh:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

That is, Jesus was a man:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created!

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

The three persons of the trinity are supposed to be co-eternal, of the same substance, and co-equal.

Jesus was made for the purpose of suffering death. So He was not eternal.

Jesus was flesh, while God is a spirit:

God is a Spirit:

And as you quoted from John 5:19: "The Son can do nothing of himself."

Thus Jesus prayed often to God the Father for assistance, guidance, and power.

So Jesus was not co-eternal, not of the same substance, and not co-equal to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

If it exist, the Trinity would have to consist of God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.

[RightReason]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

No, he left us the Holy Spirit to "lead us into all truth", John 16:13.

This is more proof as to why Jesus established His Church, gave her authority, told us we could trust her because God was sending the Holy Spirit to guide her in all truth.


I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.

He was speaking to His Church, letting us know there was much more for us to know, which will be revealed through His Church.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint]

No, he left us the Holy Spirit to "lead us into all truth", John 16:13.

This is more proof as to why Jesus established His Church, gave her authority, told us we could trust her because God was sending the Holy Spirit to guide her in all truth.


I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.

He was speaking to His Church, letting us know there was much more for us to know, which will be revealed through His Church.

"His Church" is not identified as a specific named organization, but is all believers in Jesus Christ.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 6 by For_The_Kingdom]

The apostle John called Jesus "God" (John 20:28). And if the apostle John (who was in Jesus' inner circle) thought Jesus was God, then I think Jesus is God.

That was Thomas, not John.

It sure was Thomas. But guess what, Thomas was still an APOSTLE of Jesus, and he would have no business committing BLASPHEMY in front of Jesus' face by calling him God..and Jesus would have no business ACCEPTING that kind blasphemous praise by allowing anyone to call him God...if he weren't in fact, God.

Opinions vary.

Opinions only vary to those who change the words and contextual meaning of what was actually said (as Jehovah's Witnesses do), instead of simply letting the Bible speak for itself.

I choose to believe what Jesus himself said on this matter.

John 17:

1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 20:17

Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

That's interesting...because the Father called the Son God, too...

Heb 1:7-8

7 "Now about the angels He says: He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire. 8But about the Son He says: Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom."

So apparently, what we find in Scripture is both the Son and the Father calling each OTHER God...which they have every right to do, considering they are both God..which is what the Trinity is all about; both sharing the same essence (Divine) while being distinct persons.

I dont see where you acknowledged my posts #59,60 & 61.Could you comment on them please? I already explained John 20:28 and also how we can see that none of the other disciples thought Jesus was God. John clearly stated that Jesus is the SON of God."

[onewithhim]

First of all......where in the Bible does it say that "only God is without sin"??

Um, did not Paul say "there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". (Rom 3:22-23).

So, does God himself fall in this "all" category? Obviously, not.

Sadly, your religious instructors have failed you.

Wait a minute, don't get you your religious "instructions" from the Watchtower & Tract Society?

The irony.

You were told a falsehood. Nowherein the Bible does it say that only God is without sin.

No HUMAN is without sin, but there are millions of ANGELS that are without sin. When God made Adam, he made him without sin. Adam only became sinful when he disobeyed God.
Yet, Jesus can make the claim, not just by his words, but his actions. In order for your ways to be as perfect as God, you must actually be God. And that is the point.

Jesus is God.

Second, it is YOUR premise that is flawed. Your premise is that angels are without sin, when no where in the Bible does it state that. If angels are free creatures, then of course they have the ability to sin, and if they have the ability to disobey God, then it is only a matter of time before they disobey God...in the SAME manner that it was only a matter of time before Adam disobeyed God (being a free creature and all).

If you think that angels are without sin, then you are putting angels level of benevolence on the same level as the Almighty God, which is blasphemous.

Besides God (who is the Father and the Father ONLY), Jesus and all the angels are without sin, and all of mankind would be also if Adam had not disobeyed and passed sin and death on to his offspring.

Please give me the Scripture which states that angels are without sin.

Ooops, forgive me, I didn't get this far when I said you didn't comment on my posts.

You say that somehow "all have sinned" (Romans 3:23) means that everyone but God has sinned. No. It is referring to HUMANS, after Adam rebelled. He was not saying that the angels sinned, because he knew they did not. Only fallen humans. Jesus, as the Son of God, was sinless also, and he was not God.

Yes, I get instruction from the Faithful and Wise Servant---the Watchtower's faithful Governing Body. But here is the difference: They are telling the truth. If you were being told the truth, you would see that Paul was talking about all humans on Earth that inherited sin and death from Adam. The faithful angels did not get involved with the fall of mankind. They remain sinless.

You seem unaccustomed to the fact that a created being can be sinless. Tell me this, please: Don't you believe that when God creates, he creates perfectly? Why would God make something that isn't perfect.... something that is flawed? Why would anybody assume such a thing? When he made Adam and Eve, they were perfect. They lost perfection when the rebelled. The angels were created perfect also. The majority of angels who did not go with Satan are STILL perfect.

Jesus has always been perfect, and he wasn't touched by the fall of mankind. He did not inherit sin and death. So it's easy to see that Jesus doesn't have to be God to be sinless.

([Moses said of God:

"The Rock, PERFECT is his activity..." (Deuteronomy 32:4) ]


For the Kingdom, I think it is incumbent upon YOU to show from the Scriptures that the faithful angels are NOT perfect and are NOT sinless.

To be sinless does not make a person on a level with God. I don't think there is anything in the Bible that would support that.