Can we believe what Paul tells us?

[polonius]

Some researcher on Paul's Epistles noted these says?

Should we believe without question what he claims in his Epistles?

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)

and

"Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so: ... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor. 12.15-16)

He sounds sort of manipulative, doesn't he?

[polonius]

BJS posted:

But now you are suggesting that I have taken the words you wrote out of context. You are suggesting that if I look at the context I will find that you were quoting Paul instead of saying something that you thought was true about yourself.

So which is it? Should I read the plain meaning of your words, or should I look at the context of those words? And should I read the plain meaning of Pauls words, or should I look at the context in which he wrote them?

RESPONSE: Yes. Those with adequate reading skills or those who consult a Bible will recognize what Paul (not I ) said.

[tam]

Peace to you,

BJS posted:

But now you are suggesting that I have taken the words you wrote out of context. You are suggesting that if I look at the context I will find that you were quoting Paul instead of saying something that you thought was true about yourself.

So which is it? Should I read the plain meaning of your words, or should I look at the context of those words? And should I read the plain meaning of Pauls words, or should I look at the context in which he wrote them?

RESPONSE: Yes. Those with adequate reading skills or those who consult a Bible will recognize what Paul (not I ) said.

I believe bjs is trying to show you that you did this same thing with Romans 3.


"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"


Again, this is not Paul's argument. This is something that Paul is arguing against. Paul is not saying that he lies to bring God glory, nor is he approving of anyone else doing this. Pay close attention to verse 8 and you will see that Paul states that others are slandering him (and those with him) by claiming that he has said 'let us do evil that good may result'.


The context in these verses makes it clear (regardless of what translation you use) that this is not Paul's argument. When people say this IS his argument, he clearly states that they are slandering him.


**


Not that we should just blindly accept anything that Paul (or anyone else) says. Men can and do err. Christ is the the Truth, and Christ is the One to whom God told us to listen. If someone states something in conflict with Christ, then it cannot be true. Because truth cannot contradict truth. Both cannot be true. We are to listen to Christ - the Truth. I am sure Paul would agree.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[bjs]

[Replying to polonius]

So we should use our reading skills to see the context of what you wrote, but not use our reading skills to see the context of what Paul wrote. Do you genuinely not see the double standard here?

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius]

Paul is simply saying if the truth of God increases through (what you say is a lie) What I say can't really be a lie

[polonius]

An expression in Latin is "Ipse dixit."

It is translated as "He says it himself"

Paul said ""Now granted, I have not burdened you; yet sly as I am, I took you in by deceit! " Corinthians 12:16

This is Paul' admission of deceit.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 12 by polonius]

Saying that you are taking something out of context is not a ploy. The ploy is taking something out of context. This thread is an extreme version of this dishonest ploy. Pointing out the context is an effort at honesty.

Perhaps I haven not effectively explained what taking something out of context is. Let me give you an example of taking something out of context so that it is clear what I am talking about.

______________________________________________________________

I took you in by deceit!

Polinus admits that he is lying! This is the plain meaning of the words and the facts of history. Polinus openly admits that he is deceitful and so no one should not trust anything he writes.

RESPONSE: Please cite precisely where "Polonius admits that he is lying!"

The "out of context" ploy to try to explain away the evidence to the contrary.
______________________________________________________________

That is an example of taking something out of context. It is what you have done in this thread. You have taken Pauls words out of context. Your ploy has been to make it appear that Paul was saying something which anyone who has read the text can plainly see Paul was not saying.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 12 by polonius]

Saying that you are taking something out of context is not a ploy. The ploy is taking something out of context. This thread is an extreme version of this dishonest ploy. Pointing out the context is an effort at honesty.

Perhaps I haven not effectively explained what taking something out of context is. Let me give you an example of taking something out of context so that it is clear what I am talking about.

______________________________________________________________

I took you in by deceit!

Polinus admits that he is lying! This is the plain meaning of the words and the facts of history. Polinus openly admits that he is deceitful and so no one should not trust anything he writes.

RESPONSE: Please cite precisely where "Polonius admits that he is lying!"

The "out of context" ploy is commonly used if actual refutation is impossible to try to explain away clear evidence to the contrary.
______________________________________________________________

That is an example of taking something out of context. It is what you have done in this thread. You have taken Pauls words out of context. Your ploy has been to make it appear that Paul was saying something which anyone who has read the text can plainly see Paul was not saying.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 12 by polonius]

Saying that you are taking something out of context is not a ploy. The ploy is taking something out of context. This thread is an extreme version of this dishonest ploy. Pointing out the context is an effort at honesty.

Perhaps I haven not effectively explained what taking something out of context is. Let me give you an example of taking something out of context so that it is clear what I am talking about.

______________________________________________________________

I took you in by deceit!

Polinus admits that he is lying! This is the plain meaning of the words and the facts of history. Polinus openly admits that he is deceitful and so no one should not trust anything he writes.

RESPONSE: Please cite precisely where "Polonius admits that he is lying!"

The "out of context" ploy is commonly used if actual refutation is impossible to try to explain away clear evidence to the contrary.
______________________________________________________________

That is an example of taking something out of context. It is what you have done in this thread. You have taken Pauls words out of context. Your ploy has been to make it appear that Paul was saying something which anyone who has read the text can plainly see Paul was not saying.

RESPONSE: Yet I quoted Paul verbatim!

[bjs]

[Replying to post 12 by polonius]

Saying that you are taking something out of context is not a ploy. The ploy is taking something out of context. This thread is an extreme version of this dishonest ploy. Pointing out the context is an effort at honesty.

Perhaps I haven not effectively explained what taking something out of context is. Let me give you an example of taking something out of context so that it is clear what I am talking about.

______________________________________________________________

I took you in by deceit!

Polinus admits that he is lying! This is the plain meaning of the words and the facts of history. Polinus openly admits that he is deceitful and so no one should not trust anything he writes.

RESPONSE: Please cite precisely where "Polonius admits that he is lying!"

The "out of context" ploy is commonly used if actual refutation is impossible to try to explain away clear evidence to the contrary.
______________________________________________________________

That is an example of taking something out of context. It is what you have done in this thread. You have taken Pauls words out of context. Your ploy has been to make it appear that Paul was saying something which anyone who has read the text can plainly see Paul was not saying.

RESPONSE: Yet I quoted Paul verbatim!

And I quoted you verbatim.