- 1. Lack of recognition of an ultimate judge of moral actions and a judge who sets injustice aright in a last judgement, and thus do not recognize the immorality of murder.
2. Lack of seeing the importance of human beings as images of God and so easily discarding them as merely material things, products of mere chance.
3. Lack of acknowledging an external standard of moral perfection, thus ending up with self-created standards which can include killing for political survival.
4. Absence of guidance by divine revelation of the moral law, such as "Thou shalt not kill".
5. Following an ethic of atheistic evolutionism that is based on the survival and victory of the fittest, which is ultimately a bloodthirsty ethic—an ethic that is eager to kill and to maim. This ethic is about conquering others rather than self-conquest.
6. The intolerance of many atheists
Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide
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Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide
Post #1As you should know, many apologists will tell you that not only is atheism wrong factually, it is wrong morally. For example, Conservopedia includes an article entitled Atheism and Mass Murder that purports to link atheism with modern genocides including the Reign of Terror and the mass murders of Stalin. That article includes a list of factors linking atheism to mass murder:
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Re: Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide
Post #2.
However, it does not appear as though religionists ACT any more ‘moral’ than others. Their incarceration rates and divorce statistics in the US are as high or higher than non-religous. And Christian women have half a million abortions per year in the US (in spite of Christian moralistic teachings in opposition). Walk the talk seems to be missing.
When environments change plants and animals can adapt or die out. For instance, droughts place stress on many plants and animals (including H. sapiens and their near relatives). Some can tolerate the changes, others cannot. No gods or moralizing or homicide required.
AND, religion is not based on ‘self-conquest’ (but typically upon believing what one is told about supernatural entities)
The list appears to be straight from the overworked imagination of an overeager Apologist attempting to project negatives onto their feared opposition. It is a losing strategy.Jagella wrote: Question for Debate: Are the items on this list causes of violence on the part of atheists?
Proposing or imagining or declaring an ‘ultimate judge’ and a ‘last judgment’ may be needed to serve to guide (somewhat) the actions of believers.1. Lack of recognition of an ultimate judge of moral actions and a judge who sets injustice aright in a last judgement,
However, it does not appear as though religionists ACT any more ‘moral’ than others. Their incarceration rates and divorce statistics in the US are as high or higher than non-religous. And Christian women have half a million abortions per year in the US (in spite of Christian moralistic teachings in opposition). Walk the talk seems to be missing.
The immorality of murder is recognized in many cultures that are not ‘god driven’ -- while many highly religious cultures have very high homicide rates.and thus do not recognize the immorality of murder.
There is no assurance that humans are ‘images of god’ – but ample indication that ‘god’ is anthropomorphize (to attribute human form or personality to things not human)2. Lack of seeing the importance of human beings as images of God
Discarding? Who has proposed ‘discarding humans’?and so easily discarding them as merely material things, products of mere chance.
Lack of EVIDENCE of any ‘external standard of moral perfection’ (beyond the imagination of god worshipers / believers)3. Lack of acknowledging an external standard of moral perfection,
Killing ‘for political survival’ is not unique to any theistic positionthus ending up with self-created standards which can include killing for political survival.
Absent verifiable evidence of ‘divine revelation of moral law’. Saying “Thou shalt not kill� sounds moral – however, killing is performed by god believers and worshipers; failing to ‘walk the talk’4. Absence of guidance by divine revelation of the moral law, such as "Thou shalt not kill".
Evolution is NOT a feature of Atheism. One can recognize that ‘genetic change through generations’ (geneticists definition of Evolution) regardless of theistic position.5. Following an ethic of atheistic evolutionism
WHAT reasoning would propose that the LEAST able to survive and reproduce in a given environment be the ones to survive?that is based on the survival and victory of the fittest,
If an organism is not well adapted to its environment it is likely to become extinct – without any emotionalism about ‘bloodthirsty’, ‘eager to kill or maim’.which is ultimately a bloodthirsty ethic—an ethic that is eager to kill and to maim.
When environments change plants and animals can adapt or die out. For instance, droughts place stress on many plants and animals (including H. sapiens and their near relatives). Some can tolerate the changes, others cannot. No gods or moralizing or homicide required.
Evolution is not based on ‘conquering others’This ethic is about conquering others rather than self-conquest.
AND, religion is not based on ‘self-conquest’ (but typically upon believing what one is told about supernatural entities)
Compared to what? Would anyone care to defend religions as being tolerant (in actions – not mere words)?6. The intolerance of many atheists
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Re: Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide
Post #3[Replying to post 2 by Zzyzx]
Great responses, Zz!
I think that in summary you appear to argue as I do that the items on that list could as easily apply to theists as well as atheists. Many people believe in gods but not believe in an "ultimate judge" or see people as "images of God" or have any moral standards. Some theists like many atheists also accept evolutionary theory.
To posit that atheism causes mass murder is a really stupid theory. Does the writer of that article think that if people don't believe in an invisible man in the sky, then they'll become mass murderers? Maybe the writer would! LOL
Great responses, Zz!
I think that in summary you appear to argue as I do that the items on that list could as easily apply to theists as well as atheists. Many people believe in gods but not believe in an "ultimate judge" or see people as "images of God" or have any moral standards. Some theists like many atheists also accept evolutionary theory.
To posit that atheism causes mass murder is a really stupid theory. Does the writer of that article think that if people don't believe in an invisible man in the sky, then they'll become mass murderers? Maybe the writer would! LOL
Last edited by Jagella on Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide
Post #4.
Perhaps such people should have religion (or a padded cell, or both).
Some appear to think exactly thatJagella wrote: Does the writer of that article think that if people don't believe in an invisible man in the sky, then they'll become mass murderers?
There have been Fanatical Christians state in debates here that without their religion they would be free (and possibly inclined?) to rape, steal and murder.Jagella wrote: Maybe the writer would!
Perhaps such people should have religion (or a padded cell, or both).
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Re: Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide
Post #5I can only address these for myself, I am after all simply one atheist, not atheism itself.Jagella wrote:
I recognize that murder is immoral because I don't believe in a last judgement or a judge to set injustice aright. This life is all we have. To steal that life from another is perhaps the greatest injustice possible.
1. Lack of recognition of an ultimate judge of moral actions and a judge who sets injustice aright in a last judgement, and thus do not recognize the immorality of murder.
From what I can tell, God was created in our image. If there is any importance in his image, it is because we humans are important and I agree that we are.
2. Lack of seeing the importance of human beings as images of God and so easily discarding them as merely material things, products of mere chance.
I've never seen any evidence of an external standard of moral perfection and many of those that do seem quite ready to commit murder for any number of reasons.
3. Lack of acknowledging an external standard of moral perfection, thus ending up with self-created standards which can include killing for political survival.
I've got my own reasons to not kill, I don't need anyone else's.
4. Absence of guidance by divine revelation of the moral law, such as "Thou shalt not kill".
To my knowledge, there is nothing in the theory of evolution that recommends we help it along by killing and maiming others. If there were, I'd reject that component of evolution. That of course is due to my own ethics. Neither atheism nor evolution are systems of ethics.
5. Following an ethic of atheistic evolutionism that is based on the survival and victory of the fittest, which is ultimately a bloodthirsty ethic—an ethic that is eager to kill and to maim. This ethic is about conquering others rather than self-conquest.
I've realized lately that I have an intolerance for poorly played blues licks repeated over and over not with the goal of adding to a song, but simply to direct attention to the player's dexterity. This intolerance has never caused me to commit any violence. It has lead me to cue up some good Buddy Guy tunes to remind myself of how it should be done.
6. The intolerance of many atheists
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
Re: Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide
Post #6It's very possible that some people do need a "big-brother god" eyeing them every minute of the day to keep them in line. If the author(s) feel that way, then they may assume that everybody needs constant surveillance to be good. ("He knows when you've been good; he knows when you've been bad; so be good for goodness' sake!")Zzyzx wrote:There have been Fanatical Christians state in debates here that without their religion they would be free (and possibly inclined?) to rape, steal and murder.
Perhaps such people should have religion (or a padded cell, or both).
One conclusion many apologists come to when they are confronted with evils done by Christians is to insist that the evildoers are not true Christians and that they are practicing a "perverted" Christianity. We atheists could play the same game explaining away evil done by atheists as a perverted form of atheism and that people like Stalin are not true atheists.
Re: Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide
Post #7Did you notice that these anti-atheism arguments equivocate by switching "atheists" for atheism? Such arguments start out criticizing atheism only to cite the acts of some individual atheists. It would be like arguing that the invasion of Iraq is a result of Christianity because George W. Bush is a Christian! Yes, Stalin was an atheist, but he also had a mustache. Should we blame his genocides on his mustache?Tcg wrote:I can only address these for myself, I am after all simply one atheist, not atheism itself.
Atheism can be said to make life precious because like a diamond life is very limited in availability. Christianity cheapens life by positing an eternal life which it claims is granted to martyrs.This life is all we have. To steal that life from another is perhaps the greatest injustice possible.
There are many reasons for seeing people as important that the author(s) fail to mention. They seem to be unable to think beyond their narrow, dogmatic view of people.From what I can tell, God was created in our image. If there is any importance in his image, it is because we humans are important and I agree that we are.
What's great about being an atheist is that you can think of your own morality rather than mindlessly agree with some despot who claims some god gave him the rules on a mountaintop. What keeps that standard from harming human life?I've never seen any evidence of an external standard of moral perfection and many of those that do seem quite ready to commit murder for any number of reasons.
That's great, but some people evidently need to be told that killing innocent people is a no-no.I've got my own reasons to not kill, I don't need anyone else's.
If the author(s) represented the Theory of Evolution for what it really states, then they'd tell us that species need nurturing to survive. Reproduction won't work if the individuals in any species kill each other off.To my knowledge, there is nothing in the theory of evolution that recommends we help it along by killing and maiming others.
What the author(s) fail to mention is that many atheists show intolerance for the evil deeds perpetrated by people inspired by Christianity. To criticize atheists for being intolerant is a lie of omission.This intolerance has never caused me to commit any violence.
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Re: Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide
Post #8[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]
The exception to that has to be in the examining of theists beliefs regarding their definition of GODs.
Historically both Theists and non-Theists have shown propensity toward violence as an answer to a perceived problem.
Doing so "because GOD said" would seem a mad declaration to be making...the situation we find ourselves experiencing collectively is a stage set to explore the notion and effect of violence. Violence is natural enough whereas murder is not.
At some stage through a number of related medium, Human Beings have decided that murder is unnatural and therefore unacceptable, but the lines are still quite relatively blurred - perhaps we are still figuring out the details?
But Theist and atheist are labels and simply are applied as a means of extra identity. Humans have the potential to be murderous just as they have the potential to be kind and giving.
It is probable that those who claim atheism creates a platform for such atrocity to play off from, are perhaps thinking that IF they were an atheist, THEN they would likely behave in such a manner in the name of atheism - as it were...
So in that, perhaps one could be grateful that these ones are Theists, who think that their particular Theist beliefs somehow reign them in from committing murder.
In other words perhaps one can count their lucky stars that Theism contains an otherwise potential problem.
Whether ones definition of atheist is someone who lacks belief in GODs or is someone who believes that GODs don't exist, violence cannot be said to be caused by 'being atheist' any more than it can be said to 'being theist' where the generic definition is "Someone who believes GODs exist."Question for Debate: Are the items on this list causes of violence on the part of atheists?
The exception to that has to be in the examining of theists beliefs regarding their definition of GODs.
Historically both Theists and non-Theists have shown propensity toward violence as an answer to a perceived problem.
The truth appears to be (based on my above observations being correct) that having an idea of a GOD who observes all ones activity and makes a call on it, does not in itself indicate that having such belief or not having such belief make any particular difference to whether any individual Theist or non Theist will commit murder.1. Lack of recognition of an ultimate judge of moral actions and a judge who sets injustice aright in a last judgement, and thus do not recognize the immorality of murder.
Doing so "because GOD said" would seem a mad declaration to be making...the situation we find ourselves experiencing collectively is a stage set to explore the notion and effect of violence. Violence is natural enough whereas murder is not.
At some stage through a number of related medium, Human Beings have decided that murder is unnatural and therefore unacceptable, but the lines are still quite relatively blurred - perhaps we are still figuring out the details?
I would say that this would be the interpretation of some folk calling themselves atheists, which would account for why atheists sometimes commit mass murders.2. Lack of seeing the importance of human beings as images of God and so easily discarding them as merely material things, products of mere chance.
But Theist and atheist are labels and simply are applied as a means of extra identity. Humans have the potential to be murderous just as they have the potential to be kind and giving.
It is probable that those who claim atheism creates a platform for such atrocity to play off from, are perhaps thinking that IF they were an atheist, THEN they would likely behave in such a manner in the name of atheism - as it were...
So in that, perhaps one could be grateful that these ones are Theists, who think that their particular Theist beliefs somehow reign them in from committing murder.
In other words perhaps one can count their lucky stars that Theism contains an otherwise potential problem.
Re: Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide
Post #9That's quite true. Violence can affect anybody who strives to attain or retain a scarce resource. The problem with religion is that it can create a scarce resource like "salvation" that people may fight over. So at least atheists need not fight over who gets to heaven or whose god really exists.William wrote:Historically both Theists and non-Theists have shown propensity toward violence as an answer to a perceived problem.
Morality evolves along with us. What was right or wrong in the past may be wrong or right today. I just hope that whatever morality we adopt, it will help us to survive and strive for a better existence.At some stage through a number of related medium, Human Beings have decided that murder is unnatural and therefore unacceptable, but the lines are still quite relatively blurred - perhaps we are still figuring out the details?
I've read that some people blame Stalin's deeds on his stint in a Christian seminary when he was a boy. It would be supremely ironic if Stalin's deadly ways resulted not from atheism but from Christianity!I would say that this would be the interpretation of some folk calling themselves atheists, which would account for why atheists sometimes commit mass murders.
I should point out that I started this thread not so much to defend atheism but to examine why people can turn violent. I see no logical link between atheism and violence, but if there is one, I hope it doesn't manifest itself as actual violence. But even if atheism is a cause of violence, it doesn't follow that any gods exist. It would be strange to believe in a god hoping to avoid hurting others!
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Re: Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide
Post #10The article itself prefaces this list by saying that these characteristics of atheism "can lend itself to mass murder," rather than being the "causes of violence," as you've posed the question here. It would seem, then, we're not considering the intended point that section of the article is making.