Why isn't God speaking and acting today?

[Jagella]

The Bible was written long ago in the Middle East by a relatively small and backwards people. If we can believe what the Bible says, the creator of the world ignored for the most part the large majority of the world's people and places choosing to focus on one small tribe in one small, remote place; it was the tribe who wrote the Bible! This creator dealt with those people speaking to a small number of them who relayed the creator's messages to the rest of the people. (We are not told why the creator would not or could not speak to everybody.) He didn't leave the rest of the people in complete doubt as to whom he spoke to because his chosen prophets had amazing messages detailing what was going on at the time and even what was to happen in the remote future.

But if that wasn't amazing enough, the creator performed miracles for his people. He parted a sea, made a donkey talk, made a big fish cough-up a living man, impregnated a virgin without the use of a penis, granted magical powers to her resulting son, and then raised her son not only from the dead but up into the sky!

Unfortunately, the creator did all of this long before modern recording technology. So all we have as a record of these revelations and miracles are documents written in languages that most people do not speak or understand.

Question for Debate: Why isn't God speaking and acting today for us all to hear and see?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

I think the miraculous incidents of the Bible are blown out of proportion as far as scope.

Taking for granted the historicity of the miracles of the Bible, they were all highly "local". While Jesus was raising a dead girl in Palestine, thousands upon thousands throughout the world were simply dead: for that matter, their may have been a young girl who died three streets down.

While God revealed himself on Sinai, a million mountains were bare.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by liamconnor]


WHY ARE THERE NO SPECTACULAR MIRACLES SUCH AS THOSE DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE TODAY?

• ♦ANSWER: Because the Apostolic ere (the period when Jesus' Apostles and their contemporaries were alive on earth) bought all spectacular miraculous events (including supernatural visions) of truly divine origin to an end. Subsequently all paranormal experiences, messages and " miracles" (whether from so-called relgious devotion, meditational or Yoga based exercises, "white witches" or near death experiences, so called "faith healings"...) are either explained by natural/medical phenonema, mental disorder or demonic intervention.

QUESTION Is there biblical support for the teaching of the cessession of spectacular miracles?

1 CORTHINTHIANS 12:8-13
“Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.�

From the above its clear gifts of the spirit will cease one day because Paul explicitly stated that they would, the only point of contention is not * if* but WHEN that day would be.

ACTS 8:14-18
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samarʹi•a had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them; and these went down and prayed for them to get holy spirit. [...] Now when Simon saw that the spirit was given through the laying on of the hands of the apostles, he offered them money, saying: “Give me this authority also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive holy spirit.�

Only the Apostles could pass on those gifts through the physical laying on of their hands on people, but there is no indication in scripture that those who had theselves received such powers could themselves pass them on to the next "generation" of believers. If this conclusion is correct, when the last Aposle died and the last person that had an Aposle lay their hands on them died, that would bring the age of miracles to an end.


WHY did such MIRACLES cease?

• ♦ANSWER: Because they has served their purpose and were no longer needed. We believe God always does things for a reason and Christian miracles were evident proof that God's favour had passed from the Jewish system of temple based worship to this small group of disciples of the carpenter from Nazareth. Miracles then were a clear signal that mankind were to change a direction and join themselves to this "new" religion. Once the point had been made there was no need for such spectacular signs to continue. From then on, as Jesus said, continued identification would be through the LOVE this "new religion" displayed" (see John 13:35).

NOTE : The first century miracles were not the personal, small scale affirmations of "faith" , they were systematic, often public wide scale demonstrations of divine favour for a group; performed at the hands of or through the approbation of that groups leaders. Since such miracles included the raising of the dead, they constituted undeniable evidence that could be of no other source than Almighty God, and proved which organisation (religion) now enjoyed divine backing.


With the completion of the holy scriptures believers would have no further need of personal revelation, they would have all they needed to keep their faith strong and bear thorough witness. Further, with the establishment of the first century congregation and the destruction of the Jewish temple, there could be no doubt of which group now had divine favor, the spectacular miracles performed by the Apostles and the contemporaries would have served their purpose and that age would come to its end.

2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

RELATED POSTS


By what criteria should supernatural experiences be judged?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 38#p927538

Voices from God or voices from Demons?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 10#p927610
Continued
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 12#p927612

Why would a demon impersonate Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p927472

How can near death experiences NDEs be explained?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 32#p928332


NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[JJ50]

God has never existed and is a human creation, imo

[Jagella]

WHY did such MIRACLES cease?

• ♦ANSWER: Because they has served their purpose and were no longer needed. We believe God always does things for a reason and Christian miracles were evident proof that God's favour had passed from the Jewish system of temple based worship to this small group of disciples of the carpenter from Nazareth. Miracles then were a clear signal that mankind were to change a direction and join themselves to this "new" religion. Once the point had been made there was no need for such spectacular signs to continue. From then on, as Jesus said, continued identification would be through the LOVE this "new religion" displayed" (see John 13:35).

There really is no Bible passage that says when or why miracles and revelation would cease. 1 Corinthians 12 mentions the "gifts of the spirit" which include both revelation and healing but not one word that they were to end at some time. Many Christians even today interpret such passages as the basis for modern prophecy and miraculous healing.

Also, if actual revelation and miracles were so important to some people at some times, then why privilege those few people at those times leaving the rest of humanity to trust their word? It's contradictory to claim that actual revelation and miracles are important for Jehovah to make his "point" to some people only to change his approach by letting the rest of us just reading stories about those acts. If Jehovah needed to make himself clear to some people, then he would need to make himself clear to all of us in the same way. "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."

NOTE : The first century miracles were not the personal, small scale affirmations of "faith" , they were systematic, often public wide scale demonstrations of divine favour for a group; performed at the hands of or through the approbation of that groups leaders. Since such miracles included the raising of the dead, they constituted undeniable evidence that could be of no other source than Almighty God, and proved which organisation (religion) now enjoyed divine backing.

While an actual public demonstration of miracles might be "undeniable," words in a book are easily deniable. Jehovah might be necessary for miracles, but all that's needed to make up stories in a book are crafty people. Any critical-thinking person should question people who disseminate such tales while making excuses why their god won't act that way at other times for other people.

With the completion of the holy scriptures believers would have no further need of personal revelation, they would have all they needed to keep their faith strong and bear thorough witness. Further, with the establishment of the first century congregation and the destruction of the Jewish temple, there could be no doubt of which group now had divine favor, the spectacular miracles performed by the Apostles and the contemporaries would have served their purpose and that age would come to its end.

What you're saying here is simply wrong. Many people throughout history have felt a need for actual revelation and miracles they can experience for themselves. That's why Roman Catholics travel to Lourdes, for example. Reading of miraculous healings that supposedly happened to other people long ago won't help them get over illness today.

Finally, if Jehovah god is real, then he is eternal and doesn't change. There's no good reason to conclude that he would suddenly change his ways. He would realize that all people always need good evidence to base their beliefs upon, and stories are not good evidence. But on the other hand, if Jehovah isn't real, then there was never any revelation from him or miracles performed by him which explains very well why there is no revelation or miracles today.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

At least they weren't distracted by facebook iphones and whatever else. They were at least able to form their own unique thoughts understanding about God. God may be seen to not be speaking to us because we are too distracted to hear . But believe me God is still speaking to us.

[JJ50]

[Replying to post 6 by dio9]

I don't believe you, there is no evidence it exists.

[PinSeeker]

Why isn't God speaking and acting today for us all to hear and see?

Um, He is. As for His speaking, not audibly, of course; in these last days, He has spoken to us in the person of Jesus, Who was and is the Word made flesh, and we have His Word with us (the Bible). As the great hymn writer says, "What more can He say than to you He has said..."

It's the human ability to hear and see that's the problem. When one is spiritually dead, he or she cannot spiritually see or hear, because he or she is... dead. One needs to be made spiritually alive to see and hear spiritual things.

In response to that, one might say, "Well I hear and see just fine..." Well, okay...

[1213]

The Bible was written long ago in the Middle East by a relatively small and backwards people. If we can believe what the Bible says, the creator of the world ignored…

Bible doesn’t say God ignored other people. By what I have understood, other people had rejected God, but it doesn’t mean God ignored other people.

…Unfortunately, the creator did all of this long before modern recording technology. So all we have as a record of these revelations and miracles are documents written in languages that most people do not speak or understand.

And I think it is enough. Those who are righteous, or become righteous, Bible is enough. Those who are not and don’t become righteous, nothing would be enough.

Question for Debate: Why isn't God speaking and acting today for us all to hear and see?

I believe there is no good reason to do more.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

At least they weren't distracted by facebook iphones and whatever else. They were at least able to form their own unique thoughts understanding about God. God may be seen to not be speaking to us because we are too distracted to hear . But believe me God is still speaking to us.

If a God is not able to cut through the clutter of modern life, why should one consider it a god? The iron chariots of old were too much for it to defeat, and now iPhones have overpowered it.


Tcg