Blaming Atheism for Modern Genocide

[Jagella]

As you should know, many apologists will tell you that not only is atheism wrong factually, it is wrong morally. For example, Conservopedia includes an article entitled Atheism and Mass Murder that purports to link atheism with modern genocides including the Reign of Terror and the mass murders of Stalin. That article includes a list of factors linking atheism to mass murder:

• 1. Lack of recognition of an ultimate judge of moral actions and a judge who sets injustice aright in a last judgement, and thus do not recognize the immorality of murder.
  2. Lack of seeing the importance of human beings as images of God and so easily discarding them as merely material things, products of mere chance.
  3. Lack of acknowledging an external standard of moral perfection, thus ending up with self-created standards which can include killing for political survival.
  4. Absence of guidance by divine revelation of the moral law, such as "Thou shalt not kill".
  5. Following an ethic of atheistic evolutionism that is based on the survival and victory of the fittest, which is ultimately a bloodthirsty ethic"an ethic that is eager to kill and to maim. This ethic is about conquering others rather than self-conquest.
  6. The intolerance of many atheists

Question for Debate: Are the items on this list causes of violence on the part of atheists?

[William]

[Replying to post 9 by Jagella]

The problem with religion is that it can create a scarce resource like "salvation" that people may fight over. So at least atheists need not fight over who gets to heaven or whose god really exists.

Is that some kind of 'nah nah nah nah nah' expression because I cannot see what it has to do with anything. I as a Theist, with my particular beliefs am not fighting over anything.

My answer clearly showed that what we might call ourselves is besides the point as to how we behave.

In that you agreed;

Violence can affect anybody who strives to attain or retain a scarce resource.

...and the additional to that, seems supercilious.

Morality evolves along with us. What was right or wrong in the past may be wrong or right today. I just hope that whatever morality we adopt, it will help us to survive and strive for a better existence.

Why? What has that got to do with being either non-Theist or Theist? What are your and my 'hopes' but imaginative daydreams and wishful thinking cast into the face of a reality which has no known end-game that we can identify as purposeful, moral or otherwise?

At least with a GOD, as a Theist I can turn my back on the pointlessness atheism has to offer in relation to hopes and dreams and morality.

What is it about that which has attracted the non-Theist which I as a Theist can accept as a fair and moral trade-off which assures me my hope has a better chance when invested in non-theism and The Sacrifice of GODs?

To date, I have never been offered any incentive to turn my back on my GOD.

But even if atheism is a cause of violence, it doesn't follow that any gods exist.

My GOD tells me that violence is acceptable, but not murder. That's the bones of it.

It would be strange to believe in a god hoping to avoid hurting others!

My GOD hopes that we Humans will learn to avoid hurting one another, because that will look great on Her CV.

But She is not blind to the fact that She placed us in a violent situation, and takes that into considerable account...so no - nothing strange in that.

We humans have the opportunity to learn all about violence and what works and what does not work so well. When we turn that into murderous intent (including rape and slavery and usury etc) we do so because we choose to do so, not because GOD in Her lack of wisdom placed us here and gave us no choice.

Humans sould be able to grasp that well enough.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 9 by Jagella]

The problem with religion is that it can create a scarce resource like "salvation" that people may fight over. So at least atheists need not fight over who gets to heaven or whose god really exists.

Is that some kind of 'nah nah nah nah nah' expression because I cannot see what it has to do with anything. I as a Theist, with my particular beliefs am not fighting over anything.

I'm explaining how religion can lead to violence. (See the OP for the topic.) Although it's good that you don't "fight over anything," many theists obviously do fight often to the point of killing.

What has that got to do with being either non-Theist or Theist?

Theists often rigidly hold to standards of morality that were created by primitive and superstitious people. In many cases theists believe in an impending apocalypse in which their god(s) will do away with "evil" and usher in a paradise as a reward for the faithful. What's dangerous about this view is that it may cause people to welcome war and even nuclear war as a harbinger of the "end of the age." Even without war, people who hold such a belief may fail to see the importance of working to make the world a better place.

What are your and my 'hopes' but imaginative daydreams and wishful thinking cast into the face of a reality which has no known end-game that we can identify as purposeful, moral or otherwise?

I see that you hold such a view! I disagree and feel that we can create a better world. In fact, thanks to modern secularism, we have done just that. Science and technology has done much to improve our lives.

At least with a GOD, as a Theist I can turn my back on the pointlessness atheism has to offer in relation to hopes and dreams and morality.

As an atheist, I'm free to come up with my own point, and I do. So there's nothing necessarily pointless about atheism.

What is it about that which has attracted the non-Theist which I as a Theist can accept as a fair and moral trade-off which assures me my hope has a better chance when invested in non-theism and The Sacrifice of GODs?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but as I see it (pun intended), it makes better sense to put one's trust in what one knows rather rather than in flights of religious fancy.

My GOD tells me that violence is acceptable, but not murder. That's the bones of it...

...My GOD hopes that we Humans will learn to avoid hurting one another, because that will look great on Her CV.

Why doesn't your god tell everybody what she/he/it/they wants? Doesn't she realize that having only one person posting comments in an online forum may not be very convincing to people she won't talk to?

We humans have the opportunity to learn all about violence and what works and what does not work so well. When we turn that into murderous intent (including rape and slavery and usury etc) we do so because we choose to do so, not because GOD in Her lack of wisdom placed us here and gave us no choice.

I've often wondered why gods can't seem to be wise enough to know that people with "murderous intent" need to be restrained so that innocent people are not hurt. The local police can figure that out!

[William]

[Replying to post 12 by Jagella]

Theists often rigidly hold to standards of morality that were created by primitive and superstitious people. In many cases theists believe in an impending apocalypse in which their god(s) will do away with "evil" and usher in a paradise as a reward for the faithful. What's dangerous about this view is that it may cause people to welcome war and even nuclear war as a harbinger of the "end of the age." Even without war, people who hold such a belief may fail to see the importance of working to make the world a better place.

I still don't understand how non-theism offers anyone an opportunity to "see the importance of working to make the world a better place." other than the claim that if there were no more Theists in the world, non-Theists seem to think that that ought to do the trick, and that is what many of them are wasting their time on...

All I see in that is wishful thinking.

Bear in mind that weapons of Warfare are the direct creation of scientific process in research and development, how do you suppose non-theism would somehow prevent non-theists from using them, when non-theist helped design and build them?

What are your and my 'hopes' but imaginative daydreams and wishful thinking cast into the face of a reality which has no known end-game that we can identify as purposeful, moral or otherwise?

I see that you hold such a view!

I prefer to be realistic.

I disagree and feel that we can create a better world.

So the wishful thinking has emotion behind it, that is not surprising but what you and I might feel, is nothing which will change the world Jagella. I sure wish it were, but again, reality draws me close to Her naked bosom...and feeding off reality is better than wishing my life away on empty dreams...

In fact, thanks to modern secularism, we have done just that. Science and technology has done much to improve our lives.

Sure. But not enough to make any real significant difference as to your dreams of a better world.

Science and technology are also responsible for a great deal of the worlds problems. I acknowledge your faith that some miracle machinery might be invented to solve those problems, and I remain open to that possibility, but if that were the case, it shouldn't matter that Theists exist or not. That would be besides the point.

I wouldn't stop being a Theist on account of that possibility becoming a reality.

At least with a GOD, as a Theist I can turn my back on the pointlessness atheism has to offer in relation to hopes and dreams and morality.

As an atheist, I'm free to come up with my own point, and I do. So there's nothing necessarily pointless about atheism.

Even so, they are only atheist based dreams and hopes and morality at best. If they do manage to save the day, (whatever that means) then we can agree there was an actual point to it. Hopefully your hopes and dreams take everyone into account and not just a particular section of Humanity and the exclusion of others.

But honestly, what are these amazing hopes and dreams you have, and more to the point, what are you actually doing to make them a reality when arguing the world needs less/no Theists?

What is it about that which has attracted the non-Theist which I as a Theist can accept as a fair and moral trade-off which assures me my hope has a better chance when invested in non-theism and The Sacrifice of GODs?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but as I see it (pun intended), it makes better sense to put one's trust in what one knows rather rather than in flights of religious fancy.

I didn't catch the pun intended, sorry about that.

What I am asking is who gets to determine what is and is't religious fancy and why and how should that convince me to turn my back on my GOD?

My GOD tells me that violence is acceptable, but not murder. That's the bones of it...

...My GOD hopes that we Humans will learn to avoid hurting one another, because that will look great on Her CV.

Why doesn't your god tell everybody what she/he/it/they wants?

Not everybody is listening for one.
For another, my GOD prefers to see what happens in relation to everybody's dreams and wishes and hopes, and has a few of Her own, which are not under any immediate threat from any of humanities contrary dreams and ambitions etc...

Having said as much, I am not saying that my GOD doesn't want you and I to be living in the world where humanity is not killing one another. Human beings want that, and enough human beings wanting something is what makes that something happen.

Our hopes and dreams are besides the point if the majority of human beings don't want what we want, and are not interested in hearing alternative soulutions to something they don't even consider to being a problem.

Doesn't she realize that having only one person posting comments in an online forum may not be very convincing to people she won't talk to?

Why would you believe she won't communicate with you Jagella? Is it because you think she doesn't, and couldn't possibly? Or perhaps it is because one person on a forum can't convince you?

I don't put any conditions on what The Earth Entity should or should not do with individuals, Jagalla. I only know I meet Her in the middle, and that there was a lot of preexisting ideas which I carried with me which she helped me to deal with and discard...because I let her do so...

I've often wondered why gods can't seem to be wise enough to know that people with "murderous intent" need to be restrained so that innocent people are not hurt. The local police can figure that out!

Then perhaps the local police can supply you with your dreams and wishes for a better world, and you are wasting your time trying to get Theists to line up for the job?

Or perhaps 'people with murderous intent' ARE being restrained far, far away on a rock in the middle of nowhere where they can each in their own time and space learn to abandon the murderous intent and come clean and do right by one another?
- or not -

Or perhaps it is somewhere in the middle?

I myself am not concerned about the murderous intent of any others. I have my GOD and I have my answers. Non-Theism has nothing to offer except that some non-theists promise that everything will be alright as long as I abandon my Theism and join their ranks in the pursuit of turning all Theists into non-Theists.

I have better things to do with my life that waste it on empty promises. based upon wishful thinking.

[Jagella]

I still don't understand how non-theism offers anyone an opportunity to "see the importance of working to make the world a better place." other than the claim that if there were no more Theists in the world, non-Theists seem to think that that ought to do the trick, and that is what many of them are wasting their time on...

Atheism opens the door to working for a better world by closing the door to useless superstition. But once those doors are opened and closed, respectively, then humanism should be employed so that we think rationally and ethically as we build that better world!

Bear in mind that weapons of Warfare are the direct creation of scientific process in research and development, how do you suppose non-theism would somehow prevent non-theists from using them, when non-theist helped design and build them?

If you're going to bust on science, then it seems odd that you would do so in an online, computerized forum that owes its existence to science. Be that as it may, humanism again should be employed to teach people the need to live peacefully and work together to make the world a better place.

I prefer to be realistic.

Says the man who claims the earth talks to him!

Sure. But not enough to make any real significant difference as to your dreams of a better world.

I'd recommend you listen to The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined by Steven Pinker. It's long but very compelling in making a case that we are indeed getting better and making a better world.

Science and technology are also responsible for a great deal of the worlds problems.

It's more accurate to say that science and technology has been misused and mismanaged, and in that respect it has done harm in some ways. We should learn to use science and technology safely and efficiently with the goal of helping people live better lives.

But again, if you don't like science and technology, then you may stop using this forum any time.

But honestly, what are these amazing hopes and dreams you have, and more to the point, what are you actually doing to make them a reality when arguing the world needs less/no Theists?

For one thing, we need to reign in the world's nuclear arsenals much of which were built up by Christians to battle "godless Communism." We also must take about a trillion tons of CO2 out of the atmosphere to save the world from global warming. We should make sure people use contraceptives to control population growth. Finally, we need to educate the world's people to do research to find cures for diseases like cancer and solve other problems that plague humanity. I'm doing my part to educate myself about these issues and then educate others--like the people in this forum.

What I am asking is who gets to determine what is and is't religious fancy and why and how should that convince me to turn my back on my GOD?

Just get educated in science, history, and the history of science, and you should have what you need to see that the gods were created by people. Ultimately, you can make your own judgment as to what is or is not religious fancy.

Why doesn't your god tell everybody what she/he/it/they wants?

Not everybody is listening for one.

I see your god is very limited in that she can't get anybody to hear her unless they listen to her.

Doesn't she realize that having only one person posting comments in an online forum may not be very convincing to people she won't talk to?

Why would you believe she won't communicate with you Jagella? Is it because you think she doesn't, and couldn't possibly? Or perhaps it is because one person on a forum can't convince you?

I asked you first. It seems strange to me that any god would communicate the way you claim your god does. It's more likely that you are just imagining your god. Would you believe me if I told you that ETs have sent me to this forum to tell the world what they want us to know?

I don't put any conditions on what The Earth Entity should or should not do with individuals, Jagalla.

But you did. You claimed that people must listen to her, otherwise she cannot communicate with us.

[Bust Nak]

I still don't understand how non-theism offers anyone an opportunity to "see the importance of working to make the world a better place." other than the claim that if there were no more Theists in the world, non-Theists seem to think that that ought to do the trick...

It gets rid of one major justification for fighting someone else, it gets rid of one tribalistic idea that divide people. A world with one less divide is a better world.

[William]

[Replying to post 14 by Jagella]

Atheism opens the door to working for a better world by closing the door to useless superstition.

In your brave new world would you consider my being a theist to believing in 'useless superstition' simply because I believe GODs exist, and specifically that The Earth is a GOD?

Bear in mind that weapons of Warfare are the direct creation of scientific process in research and development, how do you suppose non-theism would somehow prevent non-theists from using them, when non-theist helped design and build them?

If you're going to bust on science, then it seems odd that you would do so in an online, computerized forum that owes its existence to science.

Are you saying that if I become a non-theist and embrace your ideal world of secularism, that I will have to ignore the worst of scientific process in research and development simply because of the good things created?

I regard that as the willful ignorance of turning a blind eye, and see no reason why every non-theist altogether doing so could create this amazing world you believe can be created.

Be that as it may, humanism again should be employed to teach people the need to live peacefully and work together to make the world a better place.

I do that already and am not a non-theist. So far you are not being very convincing...

I prefer to be realistic.

Says the man who claims the earth talks to him!

Is this the way you believe you can convince me to become a non-theist?

You are not being very convincing...

You would be better off showing me exactly why my belief that the Earth is a living entity, is actually not a realistic one.

I'd recommend you listen to The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined by Steven Pinker. It's long but very compelling in making a case that we are indeed getting better and making a better world.

Praise The Earth Entity, I say, if that is really the case! Only time will tell whether the messages actually got through.

Does Steven Pinker believe Theism has to be exterminated from the human psyche too? Or does he factor into his long but very compelling case that Theists too are part of those equations of his?

It's more accurate to say that science and technology has been misused and mismanaged, and in that respect it has done harm in some ways.

I see the exact same thing in regard to non-theist critique of Theism. The idea of GOD is misused and mismanaged and in that respect it has done harm in some ways.

We should learn to use science and technology safely and efficiently with the goal of helping people live better lives.

Of course. But will we, if Theism is taken out? Can this only be achieved if everyone were non-theists? I am not convinced and no non theist has given any me any great argument to date on that idea.

I appreciate most people need some kind of hope to keep their dreams alive, but that does not mean those hopes and dreams will become real, or that science will deliver this for those who hope so.

But again, if you don't like science and technology, then you may stop using this forum any time.

1: Not liking certain things about something does not equate to not liking everything about something.

2: What has quitting the using the Christianity and Apologetics sub forum got to do with anything?

(If you agree with 1: then there is no need to answer 2:)

But honestly, what are these amazing hopes and dreams you have, and more to the point, what are you actually doing to make them a reality when arguing the world needs less/no Theists?

For one thing, we need to reign in the world's nuclear arsenals much of which were built up by Christians to battle "godless Communism."

What were all the non-theists doing while these Christian scientists, politicians and engineers workers etc were building up arms? Were they building up their own nuclear arsenal to fight the Christian Theists?

We also must take about a trillion tons of CO2 out of the atmosphere to save the world from global warming.

I am sure that The Earth will survive that even if the bulk of Theist and non-Theists do not. That would be the main thing wouldn't it?

We should make sure people use contraceptives to control population growth.

Well I suppose that is one way of trying to build your brave new world. Perhaps better use of resource can feed as many mouths as need feeding?

I lean toward hemp being the way forward as one of the better ways of managing resource.

Finally, we need to educate the world's people to do research to find cures for diseases like cancer and solve other problems that plague humanity. I'm doing my part to educate myself about these issues and then educate others--like the people in this forum.

Nice ideals but I have to ask why we need to do anything? Is it simply a case of an awesome thing to have human consciousness within this universe that we should do our best to get a foothold in it and eventually spread throughout the whole galaxy, evolving from a type zero civilization right to a type III civilization?

I like the notion in general, but also realize that it is likely already that humans will eventually become a type III civilization, even without fixing all the present problems which you point out.

Or at least, create AI which will be better equipped to succeed with that task.

I am happy to assume the private sector is presently working on it, even without those pesky Christian and Communist governments having any say in that. Certainly the private sector has the money and opportunity to do so...us little dreamers and our dysfunctional dramas need not be informed, even if we were interested.

What I am asking is who gets to determine what is and is't religious fancy and why and how should that convince me to turn my back on my GOD?

Just get educated in science, history, and the history of science, and you should have what you need to see that the gods were created by people.

Well to be honest those things simply help me to understand that great human ideas (like E=mc2) come from The Earth Entity, and She - of course - wasn't created by people.
The way I understand the process of the evolution of human knowledge, there is no reason I have been shown as to why I shouldn't understand those process the way that I do.

Ideas of GODs are for the most part invented by human beings, I agree, but I also think that The Earth Entity has used this as one means to connect with individuals, as best She is able. I do not think it is necessary to believe the Earth is a living breathing, intelligent, self aware creative entity, but I have yet to be shown by any non Theist, or for that matter, any Christian Theist, why it is detrimental to others, for anyone to do so.

Ultimately, you can make your own judgment as to what is or is not religious fancy.

Well if that is the case, you should be able to agree with me, that believing the Earth is a living breathing, intelligent, self aware creative entity does not fall into the category of 'religious fantasy'. It isn't as if I am speaking about leprechauns, pink unicorns, or a giant bearded humanoid sky-god on a throne.

I am simply speaking about what actually exists.

I see your god is very limited in that she can't get anybody to hear her unless they listen to her.

Well that is the nature of our reality. Perhaps if humans do fail, She will design something more able to do so next time...but at least she is not totally limited.

I mean, for example, she could come to your awareness in a vision and impart some kind of message to you in that, but you would still have to deal with your own conclusions on such an event if you were to experience it. I have no doubt She understands you - the individual - way better than you understand yourself, so perhaps it is not a case of Her being limited in and of herself, but more a case of the limitations you place on Her by your expectations as to what you would totally regard as evidence that She exists and is able to commune with you.

Perhaps She knows that there would be no point even trying. Maybe, you having nice dreams of how you would like humanity to pan out is all She requires of you, and that will suffice, and your requirements of Her at a more intimate level are null, so it isn't a problem for either of you.

She is not pushy. If you don't want to, She won't force you...but show some genuine interest and I have no doubt She would respond in Her own way and with Her exceptional wisdom.

Doesn't she realize that having only one person posting comments in an online forum may not be very convincing to people she won't talk to?

Why would you believe she won't communicate with you Jagella? Is it because you think she doesn't, and couldn't possibly? Or perhaps it is because one person on a forum can't convince you?

I asked you first.

Sorry? Is there some universal rule that stipulates one cannot ask a question with a similar question?

It seems strange to me that any god would communicate the way you claim your god does.

You think it is not strange that The Earth exists as the anomaly that it is in this universe, is teaming with strange and wonderful lifeforms, but it is strange that a conscious entity in the form of that planet communicates with Her off-spring the way She does?

How would you expect Her to communicate with you? Ring your cell phone?

It's more likely that you are just imagining your god.

Well I have seen pics of Her, and someone conscious is communicating with me through many ways which cannot just be said to be of my own making. Imagination is just one medium in which She can communicate to human beings. You should know that imagination is very important to the human evolution of creativity and progress. Without it, we would still be naked and flinging pooh at one another while swinging from the trees.

I am not claiming GOD is a pink unicorn, leprechaun or a giant bearded humanoid sky-god on a throne. I am simply acknowledging an actual planet that exists and saying that it is a conscious creative entity being and the source of all meaningful human inspiration.

Would you believe me if I told you that ETs have sent me to this forum to tell the world what they want us to know?

I will show you the planet and you can show me your ETs.

Would I believe you if you said that you are an agent of non-theism who is more interested in convincing me that the Earth is not a GOD? I could believe that, yes.

But I am not arguing that you should believe that the Earth is a living Entity able to communicate with individual humans. I am arguing that my beliefs about that make me a Theist and that it shouldn't threaten your non-Theist hopes and dreams, that I have such belief.

I don't put any conditions on what The Earth Entity should or should not do with individuals, Jagalla.

But you did. You claimed that people must listen to her, otherwise she cannot communicate with us.

Even so, that is not a condition I put on the Earth Entity. That is simply how it is, as far as my own experiences allow me to understand the process.

If you do not think the Earth is as I believe She is, would you expect to hear from Her? Why would you?