Debate with a scientist

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Debate with a scientist

Post #1

Post by John Human »

Back in December and January, I had a debate with a scientist at a forum for medieval genealogists, where people routinely ridicule the thought of directly communicating with deceased ancestors. (For an explanation of communicating with ancestors, see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/535187/com ... -ancestors)

Toward the end of December, a “scientist and engineer� appeared and initiated a debate. For the very first time, somebody actually tried to refute me instead of the usual fare of contempt and insults. This self-identified scientist made it very clear that he dismissed my lengthy stories from ancestors as hallucinations, because of his reductionist materialist presupposition that any such communication at a distance, without some sort of physical connection, was impossible.

“Reductionist materialism� is but one solution to the so-called mind-body problem that exercised natural philosophers (“scientists�) in the 17th and 1th centuries. Are mind and body two separate things? If so, which one is primary? An overview of the mind-body problem can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem

Reductionist materialism means that things like astrology or shamanism or channeling or communicating with ancestors get summarily dismissed as “hallucinations� or “superstition.�

The conclusion of the debate (because the scientist made a point of bowing out without offering any counter-argument) came on Jan. 7. Here is the essential part of what I wrote to the scientist:
You made it clear that you consider mind to be an epiphenomenon of neural activity in the brain, and you go on to say: “To me, the mind is a function of a living brain, meaning that they’re not distinct. In my opinion, there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, like a brain.�

In response to your opinion that there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, the obvious question is, why not? I am reminded of the New York Times declaring that a heavier-than-air flying machine was impossible. Your opinion seems to be unscientific, and serves to block skeptical inquiry. It would also seem to be rigidly atheistic (denying the possibility of a transcendent deity), as opposed to a healthy skepticism when approaching questions that appear to be unknowable. Your position regarding belief in witchcraft, denying that it has anything to do with “truth,� also seems to be arbitrarily rigid and unscientific, opposed to a spirit of skeptical inquiry. However, perhaps you wrote hastily and polemically, and perhaps in general you are able to keep an open mind regarding subjects where you are inclined to strongly doubt claims that violate your pre-existing suppositions about reality.

Please keep in mind that, regarding the mind/body problem, there used to be (and still are) several different approaches, as opposed to the mind-numbing reductionist materialist view that is overwhelmingly prevalent today in science departments. Perhaps Leibniz’s approach was the most esoteric, and he was a renowned scientist and mathematician (as well as a philosopher and diplomat). His view was routinely dismissed but never refuted (as far as I am aware), but Leibniz’s influence simply disappeared from universities after protracted tenure battles in the mid-eighteenth century. However, Leibniz’s view isn’t the only possibility. I am intrigued by the thought that both matter and consciousness are manifestations of something underlying, which is not inconsistent with my own view of reality.

It seems to me that reductionist materialism (your stated belief) fails to explain the all-important phenomenon of human creativity, as measured by our ability to reorganize our environment (as a result of scientific discovery and technological progress) to establish a potential population density orders of magnitude above that of a primitive hunter-gatherer society in the same geographical area. (There is an important corollary here: Once a human society exits the Stone Age and begins using metal as a basic part of the production of food and tools, in the long run we must continue to progress or collapse due to resource depletion, especially regarding the need for progressively more efficient sources of energy. And there is another corollary as well: As a society gets more technologically complex, the minimum area for measuring relative potential population density increases.)

Is this human capability explainable in terms of matter reorganizing itself in ever-more-complex fashion? If you answer “yes� to such a question, the subsidiary question is: how does matter organize itself in ever-more-complex ways (such as the creation of human brains that then come up with the technological breakthroughs and social organization to support ever-higher relative potential population densities)? Does random chance work for you as an answer to this question? If so, isn’t that an arbitrary (and therefore unscientific) theological supposition? Or do you see the inherent logic in positing some form of intelligent design (an argument as old as Plato)? If you accept the principle of intelligent design, it seems to me that, to be consistent, the reductionist materialist view would have to posit an immanent (as opposed to transcendent) intelligence, as with the Spinozistic pantheism that influenced Locke’s followers and arguably influenced Locke himself. But if you go in that direction, where is the “universal mind� that is guiding the formation of human brains capable of creative discovery, and how does it communicate with the matter that comprises such brains? The way I see things, both the “deification of random chance� argument and the supposition of an immanent “divine� creative force have insurmountable problems, leaving some sort of transcendent divinity as the default answer regarding the question of the efficient cause of human creativity, with the final cause being the imperative for humans to participate in the ongoing creation of the universe.
The forum thread where this originally appeared is here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... yqswb4d5WA
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Re: Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #21

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 19 by Guy Threepwood]
How was this new information originated?

ToE: pure blind luck


... and natural selection. What if the genome of these initial populations of single-celled organisms either had all of the genes needed to produce more advanced features (but most were not expressed), or there was a mechanism whereby the ordering of the base pairs could be altered to create new genes and new proteins?

In the latter case you have exactly what is needed to produce nearly anything as far as a living entity. What could "push" certain of these base pair alterations (of course I'm referring to mutations of various types, insertions and deletions, new sequences due to matings, etc.) to remain in the population while others may not? Natural selection ... not pure blind luck.

I don't think you are appreciating how significant the variation in an animal can be due to changes in DNA caused by the various mechanisms that exist to change DNA. A gene is just a sequence of base pairs that may define the sequence of amino acids that make up a protein, or impact what other genes are expressed (and when), and all the other things that base pair sequences can "do." Drastic phenotype changes can result from DNA alterations to create nearly anything imaginable. But what drives it is natural selection and the advantages (or disadvantages) that result from the alterations.

To say that natural selection (working against DNA changes) can't "create" anything is just wrong. It happens all the time and we can see it in nature. The issue creationists/theists seem to have the most trouble with is the magnitude of these changes, especially when it threatens the idea that human beings are something special rather than just the evolutionary result of brain development from earlier members of the genus Homo.
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Re: Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #22

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 20 by DrNoGods]
My point was that even if the biblical creation tale had some coincidentally correct general relationship to life's development sequence, it is meaningless when it gets the time scales wrong by six orders of magnitude, along with all the many other errors (like plants being created before the sun existed, etc.). And if man is the culmination of creation with "dominion over what came before", who or what had dominion over the first 99.8% of the time that multicelluar animal life existed before the genus Homo came along?

perhaps they were lucky guesses perhaps not, my point was that if evolution is defined as merely change over time, this does not disagree with Genesis
who or what had dominion over the first 99.8% of the time that multicelluar animal life existed before the genus Homo came along?
God..
Maybe they can ask the National Academy of Sciences:
hmm, I think the Royal Society is a little more prestigious :)

But yes, many do debate this at the top level. Safe to say there is far less certainty and 'proven fact' assumed there, than in high school classrooms, pop-science TV shows, 'public education' statements etc
What do you consider "originating"? I assume it is not the actual origin of life on this planet as it is well known that this issue both is not understood yet as far as the mechanism, and that it has nothing whatsoever to do with evolution
what did Darwin consider 'originating'?

"On the Origin of Species"

(or more completely, On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life),

the origin of new species, diversity of life on Earth
These were million+ year long processes driven by natural selection, and are examples of how slow changes over long periods of time result in substantial changes
natural selection of what? what is the origin of a new feature, advantageous enough to be selected for?
which creationists like to separate into false divisions of "micro" and "macro" evolution (generally accepting the former, but not the latter)
Skeptics (including creationists) accept the one that is observable, testable, repeatable, i.e. scientific

hypothetical extrapolation is always tempting, like extrapolating classical physics to account for all physical reality... but scales matter, things DO work entirely differently at different scales, they have to- that's also something we have learned since Darwin's day
How do you explain that there are many "simple" creatures with far larger genomes than humans, if humans are supposedly the "culmination" of creation?
The human genome is comprised of 23 pairs of linear chromosomes, and approximately 3000 megabases (Mb) of DNA, while the genome of the bacterium Escherichia coli consists of a single 4.6 Mb circular chromosome

Yes the size and sophistication (superficially at least) of 2 animals does not always directly correlate with their DNA's information capacity. Similarly with electronic devices.

One possible solution to the information problem.. is that the information required for specific new designs in life to emerge was always there, and is activated at various stages, and I've even heard this used as a secular argument against divine intervention.. but it's certainly not Darwinism.

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Re: Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #23

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 21 by DrNoGods]
and natural selection. What if the genome of these initial populations of single-celled organisms either had all of the genes needed to produce more advanced features (but most were not expressed)
Okay, so maybe the monkey didn't have to type the complete works of Shakespeare, he just had to go get them from the shelf.

That's an interesting possibility, again certainly not the ToE as taught: 'natural selection acting upon random variation' , and certainly begging the question: who or what did type it? We have the same question: what is the mechanism that originates the necessary information? This just sweeps that back under the rug from the materialist point of view.

While from a skeptics point of view, we do have a mechanism which can acheive this: creative intelligence
I don't think you are appreciating how significant the variation in an animal can be due to changes in DNA caused by the various mechanisms that exist to change DNA. A gene is just a sequence of base pairs that may define the sequence of amino acids that make up a protein, or impact what other genes are expressed (and when), and all the other things that base pair sequences can "do." Drastic phenotype changes can result from DNA alterations to create nearly anything imaginable. But what drives it is natural selection and the advantages (or disadvantages) that result from the alterations.
Well another profound recent discovery is how limited the gene sequence is in creating macro changes, something else is going on- generally referred to today as epigenetics.

To say that natural selection (working against DNA changes) can't "create" anything is just wrong. It happens all the time and we can see it in nature. The issue creationists/theists seem to have the most trouble with is the magnitude of these changes
again skeptics accept what is scientifically verifiable, minor adaptation within strict limits

This is what we see in the fossil record, computer sims, direct experimentation

And the restriction is inherent in the hierarchy- you can throw random numbers at the text attributes in this forum, and have a reasonable shot at success, because that capacity for adaptation within viable limits is already specifically supported- just like control genes for color and size in dogs

Throw random numbers at the code supporting these features and you do NOT have a reasonable chance of success.

hence:

Adaptation is a design feature, not a design mechanism

And this is not a minor tweak in the theory, it is practically the exact opposite of 'big picture' ToE

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Re: Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #24

Post by Divine Insight »

Guy Threepwood wrote: But the post was about the mechanism of change, whether there could be a reductionist/ materialist explanation, that's the trickier scientific question, and certainly has greater implications
Again, this has already been answered by modern science. We know what the mechanisms of evolution are and how they work.

So this isn't a "trickier" scientific question. It's already been answered and verified.
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Re: Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #25

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 24 by Divine Insight]

Well as above, there are a few different theories going around, but out of curiosity, what is your position on the mechanism?

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Re: Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #26

Post by Divine Insight »

Guy Threepwood wrote: [Replying to post 24 by Divine Insight]

Well as above, there are a few different theories going around, but out of curiosity, what is your position on the mechanism?
It's ridiculous to say that there are a few different theories going around. That's not the position of the scientific community. This is more like something you might hear from creationists.

The mechanisms of evolution are quite well known. There is simply more than one factor that applies. It's just as simple as saying that one specific thing drove a specific evolutionary trait. But that's not the same as saying that there are a few different theories going around.

To begin with evolution is made possible because DNA is not perfect. That's the ultimate mechanical "mechanism" if you're looking for the actual mechanics of evolution.

Moreover, if some designer creator had designed biological entities, then we should expect DNA replication to indeed be perfect and not prone to errors or change. But that's not what we see, so the idea of a purposeful designing creator fails.

The other "driving force" of evolution is simply survival. DNA changes that survive continue to "evolve". DNA changes that don't survive die out. So there is a second "mechanism" of evolution if you want to call it that. But it's certainly not independent from the ultimate mechanism which is the fact DNA doesn't always replicate perfectly and can be caused to change via several mechanisms.

Other factors, that also apply and are not contradictory to the factors I mentioned above is that traits that neither enhance survival, nor cause demise can also evolve simply because they aren't causing the creatures to die out or be unable to reproduce. So some traits can evolve simply because they aren't hazardous to survival. And there is no need for any additional explanation for how those traits came to be.

So everything is covered. There are no "competing" theories. All that exists are further explanations and understanding of what is already known to be true.

So creationists who are trying desperately to discredit evolution in favor of some kind of divine design are barking up an empty tree. There is simply no credibility to those kinds of arguments.

All those kinds of arguments do is spread misinformation and ignorance about what is actually already known.

Any theology that needs for evolution to be wrong is already a dead theology.

Even the Catholic Church has come to that realization.

If want to believe in a theology you need to choose one that is compatible with evolution by natural processes.

Trying to argue that scientists don't fully understand how evolution works is just plain nonsense. Sure they can always add to the details, but there's nothing that going to change the ultimate fact that evolution by natural processes works and has been demonstrated to be the truth of biological reality.

May as well accept this and move on.

Trying to argue for a purposefully designed creationism is water already over the dam. You may as well join the Flat-Earth society if you're going to argue against evolution by natural processes.
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Re: Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #27

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 26 by Divine Insight]

To begin with evolution is made possible because DNA is not perfect. That's the ultimate mechanical "mechanism" if you're looking for the actual mechanics of evolution.


The other "driving force" of evolution is simply survival. DNA changes that survive continue to "evolve". DNA changes that don't survive die out. So there is a second "mechanism" of evolution if you want to call it that. But it's certainly not independent from the ultimate mechanism which is the fact DNA doesn't always replicate perfectly and can be caused to change via several mechanisms.
so it sounds like you are still in the old standard theory 'random copying error' camp- regarding the origin of new genetic information

Developments in evolutionary biology and adjacent fields have produced calls for revision of the standard theory of evolution-

many scientists, including staunch materialists and skeptics alike, are looking for better explanations- which could involve epigentics, pre-determination (pre-exisitng genetic code that is later activated) as 'Dr No' also suggested, and 'natural engineering' among some ideas. It could also very well involve intelligent agency, which Dawkins has speculated on and is so far the only unambiguously proven mechanism which can originate novel information system architecture.

Either way this is an information problem in the 21st century, and many traditional/classically trained biologists are simply not equipped to tackle these problems in the depth required
Last edited by Guy Threepwood on Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #28

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 22 by Guy Threepwood]
God..


Which of the thousands of such entities humans have concocted was the one who had this lofty position of dominion? Or maybe the particular flavor of "God" that you believe exists also had dominion over all the other thousands of gods as welL? Who decides which god is at the top of the god pecking order?
the origin of new species


And new species can arise that have only relatively small physical appearance differences from other similar species, or very large differences. Where do you draw the line on which changes fall into the category of "micro" vs. which are "macro"? Is it physical appearance? Is it a certain level of genetic variation? Does it matter what time frames are involved?
natural selection of what? what is the origin of a new feature, advantageous enough to be selected for?


A DNA change (mutation, insertion, deletion, etc.) that is beneficial in some way for the population. Human adaptation to (permanent) life at high altitudes is a good example. Genetic modifications that allow improved processing of oxygen ... like carrying more oxygen on each red blood cell via having higher hemoglobin levels ... is material for natural selection. The body obviously already has the ability to make hemoglobin, but genetic changes in the Andeans enabled creation of more hemoglobin than normal. The stress of less O2 in the air was countered through higher health and survival rates for people who had the mutation(s) that created this condition of higher hemoglobin levels in their blood. Eventually this spread throughout the population and became fixed. Tibetans have a higher respiratory rate and synthesize more NO which dilates blood vessels for increased blood flow. This is also the result of genetic modifications that natural selection could "work" with. There are countless other examples.
One possible solution to the information problem.. is that the information required for specific new designs in life to emerge was always there, and is activated at various stages, and I've even heard this used as a secular argument against divine intervention.. but it's certainly not Darwinism.


But it is part of modern evolutionary theory. Darwin died long before anything at all was known about DNA, genes and the genetic code. So he could not possibly have considered any aspects of these things in his original writings. But his fundamental principle that natural selection can "guide' (for lack of a better word) which DNA alterations persist and which do not is still valid, even if Darwin himself had no idea how it could all work at the genetics level.
We have the same question: what is the mechanism that originates the necessary information?


You're talking as if there is some blueprint somewhere that has to exist before any new feature or function can arise via DNA alterations and natural selection. There is no need for such a thing. If some Andean was born with a mutation that allowed him to be more physically active and acquire more food, better fight off adversaries, live longer and healthier, etc., and he had children who also had this mutation (eg. the ability to produce more hemoglobin), then that advantage, over time and many generations, would spread through the population because those who had it would likely be more successful at creating more offspring. In a low altitude environment this mutation would have no benefit, so although the man may pass it on to his children, he (and them) would have no advantage over anyone else in the population as far as survival, health, reproductive efficiency, etc. So the mutation may die out with that man and his direct offspring as natural selection would not result in a higher population of people with the mutation. The mutation may originally arise due to a random, blind luck event, but because it provides a benefit natural selection would ensure that it became fixed in the population given enough time and generations in the same high altitude environment where the mutation proved to be beneficial initially.
While from a skeptics point of view, we do have a mechanism which can acheive this: creative intelligence


And what is the source of this creative intelligence in the case of diversification of life on earth? No god beings have ever been observed, or demonstrated to exist, at any time in history. They are only hypothesized to exist. I don't see how you can buy into such an explanation based only on the fact that we can observe intelligent creatures like humans, or beavers, or spiders, creating things that require some level of intelligence, and using that to suggest that the mechanism for the diversification of life is the result of actions by some much higher level of creative intelligence yet to be identified. Extrapolating to a god being goes far beyond any data that exists.
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Re: Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #29

Post by Divine Insight »

Guy Threepwood wrote: many scientists, including staunch materialists and skeptics alike, are looking for better explanations
They can look for so-called "better explanations" until the cows come home.

Until they actually come up with one they have nothing to offer.

Rejecting known truths is easy.

Coming up with better truths can be extremely difficult, of even impossible if the known truths are already the real truth.

Evolution stands, until someone can shoot it down. Thus far no one has been able to do that. Nor does it appear that they ever will.

Also, you've made a grave error here:
Guy Threepwood wrote: so it sounds like you are still in the old standard theory 'random copying error' camp- regarding the origin of new genetic information
Nope, not at all. In fact, this is nothing more than an attempt by you to try to shove your misinformation onto me.

As I mentioned before, there is far more to it than any one simple explanation. Yes, random copying errors are definitely a source of new genetic information. But that's not the only thing that drives evolution by far.

Have you been paying attention to what scientists have actually observed?

Bacteria and even insects can evolved extremely rapidly depending on the conditions of their environment. These problems are huge in medicine and agriculture.

How do these bacteria and insects adapt to different conditions so rapidly? By waiting for a genetic random accident to save them? No, of course not.

The genes are already in place within the populations. Genes that have already evolved over billions of years. They were simply dormant or not important (as I had mentioned previously). A gene that is not harmful has no pressure to be removed (i.e. it doesn't cause its carrier to die).

So a simple environmental change is all that is required to bring out the genes that can survive. No magic. No need for any intelligent designer. It's very simple. The bacteria or insects that can tolerate the new environment survive and reproduce and the ones that can't die off.

So they don't need to wait for a random copying accident. Those have already been happening for millions of years. You are filled with genes in your very own body that are not harmful to you, nor will they help you survive. Unless by some random chance your environment changes to where that particular gene will help you survive. In the case you go on to reproduce, and other people who aren't protected die off.

No magic designing God required.

In fact, stop and think about this for even a few minutes.

If there was a designing God why would he allow some humans to be naturally immune to some diseases and not other humans?

That should be a real wake-up call for any creationists.

You'd need to have a designing God who favors some humans over others, etc.

Evolution by natural processes is a far better explanation for our reality.

You said:
Guy Threepwood wrote: many scientists, including staunch materialists and skeptics alike, are looking for better explanations
Our current explanations are already perfectly sound. There simply is no need to try to look for so-called "better explanations".
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Re: Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #30

Post by John Human »

Guy Threepwood wrote:
the post was about the mechanism of change, whether there could be a reductionist/ materialist explanation, that's the trickier scientific question, and certainly has greater implications
Yes indeed, and that gets this digression almost full circle toward the thread's original challenge of reductionist materialism as a faulty solution to the mind-body problem. However, we're not quite there yet, so I'll add a couple of thoughts on evolution and natural selection:

First of all, saying that natural selection "creates" or "does" anything is implying consciousness or will, in effect personifying (and deifying) random chance. I'll suggest that we have to be careful not to transform a metaphor into a causal agent.

Secondly, "natural selection," although it was not widely accepted for the first 60 years after its introduction, was amenable to the philosophical stance of reductionist materialism, whereas the idea of a supernatural creative force intervening in the genome producing evolutionary changes (one of the competing theories; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternati ... selection ) is obviously not amenable to reductionist materialism, nor is it amenable to empirical evidence gathering. Unfortunately, when empiricism becomes elevated from a methodology to a ruling ideology, any discussion of non-material causation of material states or conditions goes out the window.

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