Does the God of the Bible have free will or is it constrained by its own nature to never do evil?
If it is constrained by its own nature, did it gain knowledge of evil when that serpent of old rebelled against God and took a number of God's angels with it? If this is the case, are we to understand that God learned from its creation and that education came by complete surprise?
If the God of the Bible lacks free will, is that a bad thing?
Tcg
Does the God of the Bible lack free will?
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Tcg
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Does the God of the Bible lack free will?
Post #1To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
Re: Does the God of the Bible lack free will?
Post #3Coincidentally, I just started a thread on the The "Goodness" of God & the Euthyphro Dilemma. As I conclude in the OP of that thread, the Christian god (if we believe apologists) is morally limited in that he must live up to a standard that is beyond his will. So yes he is constrained by his own nature in that way.Tcg wrote: Does the God of the Bible have free will or is it constrained by its own nature to never do evil?
I'm not sure how the Christian god gained any knowledge of morals when Lucifer rebelled. So I would answer your question in the negative.If it is constrained by its own nature, did it gain knowledge of evil when that serpent of old rebelled against God and took a number of God's angels with it? If this is the case, are we to understand that God learned from its creation and that education came by complete surprise?
I'd say that the Christian god lacking free will to command morality is good. That way he cannot command us to rape babies, or at least I hope he cannot!If the God of the Bible lacks free will, is that a bad thing?
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Tcg
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Post #4
I'm defining it in the same way some Christians describe human free will. Free to choose either good or evil.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Tcg
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Re: Does the God of the Bible lack free will?
Post #5Jagella wrote:
I'm not sure how the Christian god gained any knowledge of morals when Lucifer rebelled. So I would answer your question in the negative.
My thought here is that if God is unable to choose evil, would that imply a lack of knowledge concerning evil. If so, would the first event in which one of his creatures (I'm assuming that was Lucifer) chose evil have been an event in which he gained knowledge he didn't have before the event?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
Re: Does the God of the Bible lack free will?
Post #6No. I am unable to choose to start a nuclear war, but I still realize it would be evil to do so. Lack of choice does not entail lack of knowledge of the choice.Tcg wrote:My thought here is that if God is unable to choose evil, would that imply a lack of knowledge concerning evil.
Anyway, if the Christian god cannot do evil, then he is not all-powerful.
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The Tanager
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Post #7
I agree with Jagella that it would not necessarily imply a lack of knowledge. I disagree with Jagella that this would show God to not be all-powerful. Omnipotence does not include the ability to do the logically impossible. It is logically impossible for a perfect being to commit evil (i.e., not be perfect). One's power, then (however much one has), is something that can be used for good or evil purposes. So, one's inability to use it for evil is not a knock on omnipotence.
It may be a knock on God's free will, at least how Tcg and some Christians have defined it, but would that be a negative? Others define free will differently. God is said to have free will because nothing outside of Him constrains his choices...God is self-existent and independent. But God, in this view, is not a moral being, in the same sense we are. God has no moral duties to anyone. God is still good from a human perspective, but that is because we were made to reflect his nature/desires.
It may be a knock on God's free will, at least how Tcg and some Christians have defined it, but would that be a negative? Others define free will differently. God is said to have free will because nothing outside of Him constrains his choices...God is self-existent and independent. But God, in this view, is not a moral being, in the same sense we are. God has no moral duties to anyone. God is still good from a human perspective, but that is because we were made to reflect his nature/desires.
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Tcg
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Re: Does the God of the Bible lack free will?
Post #8Would you agree then, that it is not necessary to take part in evil in order to understand it? That one could have knowledge of evil while lacking any ability to participate in it?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Tcg
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Post #9
[Replying to post 7 by The Tanager]
If I understand you correctly then, you are stating that God is constrained by its own nature to never do evil. Additionally, this doesn't represent a lack of knowledge.
Would you agree then that God has full knowledge of evil and that this knowledge is not based on any actual participation with it or even any ability to do so?
Given your definition of free will, would you say that this lack of ability to do evil is not in fact an impediment to God's free will?
Tcg
If I understand you correctly then, you are stating that God is constrained by its own nature to never do evil. Additionally, this doesn't represent a lack of knowledge.
Would you agree then that God has full knowledge of evil and that this knowledge is not based on any actual participation with it or even any ability to do so?
Given your definition of free will, would you say that this lack of ability to do evil is not in fact an impediment to God's free will?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Filthy Tugboat
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Post #10
What does a "perfect being" mean? How does it mean impossible to commit evil? I feel like you are using a different definition of "perfect" than I am familiar with. I've seen the conundrum before, would a perfect glass jar still break when it falls since all glass has a breaking point?The Tanager wrote: It is logically impossible for a perfect being to commit evil (i.e., not be perfect).
If free will to do evil is and must be a part of human nature as created by God then a perfect human would still be able to commit evil. Being perfect does not mean one is unable to commit evil.
Religion feels to me a little like a Nigerian Prince scam. The "offer" is illegitimate, the "request" is unreasonable and the source is dubious, in fact, Nigeria doesn't even have a royal family.
