Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I don’t have a huge problem with the JW teaching regarding a “paradise earth�. It is certainly true that Christians will eventually be resurrected to bodily life, and a new earth/heaven will be created, however this place will not be two separate locals.

As Jesus said “I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am�- John 14:3.

The number of those resurrected is not limited to 144,000; there is no biblical support for that idea. JW’s misinterpret passages in Revelation.

I guess I also just find many of the pictures of this “paradise earth� JW’s use in their literature to be misleading and rely on overspeculation. I get the feeling many JW’s believe this “paradise earth� IS our reward. They seem to completely miss that the best part will not be rolling hills and green valleys, rather being with God, our Father and finally seeing the face of Christ!

In missing the main point again I have to see JW’s as not much different than some other religions like Islam who see heaven as endless physical pleasures (perhaps 72 virgins awaiting us). But to reduce heaven in this way is to simply not get it and in a sense seems to stem from some kind of desired socialistic eutopia -- reducing the meaning of man's existence to politics.

I think it was Onewithin who claims she will have a mansion on “paradise earth� whereas someone else might prefer a log cabin. The truth is we do not know exactly what the new heaven/earth will be like. “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard�. JW literature always depicts a husband and wife with their 2 children picking apples. Will there be husband and wife in “paradise earth�? Why would one think this “paradise earth� would be like here where couples only have 2.6 kids? If this “paradise earth� has unlimited resources and children are perfect and finances aren’t an issue, why wouldn’t everyone have a million children? And wouldn’t even more than that result if we don’t grow old in “paradise earth� – because if everyone is in a beautiful glorified 30 something body that sure is a lot of years of never ending fertility.

Again, I think it is fun to think about these things, but can’t emphasize enough the JW “paradise earth� teaching is not supported in Scripture in the way they depict it. I can’t wait to see what awaits us in heaven, but I refuse to reduce it to some Hawaiian vacation.

We are body AND soul. “Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee.� ― Augustine of Hippo, Confessions

[JehovahsWitness]

[Continued from post #1028 by JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION Do Jehovah's Witnesses use the expression paradise earth as a synonym for heaven?

♦ANSWER No, "paradise earth" is not just another way of saying heaven (Where God lives) The bible speaks of a spiritual realm where non physicalspiritual beings like God, Jesus and the angels live as heaven. This is not a physical place, there are therefore no literal trees, no literal food, no hills mountains or valleys houses or animals ect in the literal sense.

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Then we believe there is something called the earth. This we believe to be a physical planet on which there are literal things such as food, trees rivers, animals and of course many humans. The bible indicates that heaven and earth are not the same place. The original paradise garden of Eden was on this our planet earth. The future paradise earth will be the earth restored to a garden like condition.

A Paradise Earth is not another way of saying heaven. They are not the same place.



NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[elijahpne]

[Replying to RightReason]

The number of those resurrected is not limited to 144,000; there is no biblical support for that idea. JWs misinterpret passages in Revelation.

You, obviously, are not that familiar with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses: JWs do no teach that only 144,000 will be resurrected.

No JW, even those newly-converted ones will be stupid to say that. For one thing, there are more than 8 million of them right now. If they teach that then that means most of them will be wasting their time preaching if only 144,000 of them will be resurrected. Do the math.

The 144,000 are those that will be resurrected to heavenly life. But JWs also believe that countless others will be resurrected to bodily life, as you put it, on earth - that is: one faith, two destinies.

Below is an excerpt from one of their publications:

"Salvation is open to just as many people as will demonstrate true faith in the provision that God has made through Jesus. But the Bible says that only 144,000 will go to heaven to be with Christ." - Reasoning from the Scriptures, p. 361

The 144,000 will rule as kings with Jesus so, necessarily, they should be resurrected to where Jesus is right now - in heaven - to rule with him.

Of course, not all those who will be resurrected will be rulers. That will be pure nonsense. Some will be subjects of God's kingdom. So they don't need to be in heaven. They will be resurrected to bodily life here on earth. This will include pre-Christian servants of God, including Abraham, Moses, David, etc. They will be many - much more than 144,000

Additionally, the Bible teach that a "great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" will survive the great tribulation that Jesus predicted (Rev 7:9,10, 14; Matthew 24:21). Obviously, they will be more than 144,000

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1031 by elijahpne]

I agree.

Many misunderstand why we say only the 144,000 will go to heaven, and think we believe only 14r,00 will be saved or only 144, 000 will be in paradise which is not true. I think this is because the idea of an EARTHLY paradise figures little in the minds of most Christians.

JW

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 1032 by JehovahsWitness]

The least in the Kingdom are still in the Kingdom. Why not try to be greater?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1032 by JehovahsWitness]

The least in the Kingdom are still in the Kingdom. Why not try to be greater?

Why would anyone want to be greater? Jesus taught that everyone was a brother and equal. There's no one actually greater than another.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 1032 by JehovahsWitness]

Many misunderstand why we say only the 144,000 will go to heaven, and think we believe only 14r,00 will be saved or only 144, 000 will be in paradise which is not true. I think this is because the idea of an EARTHLY paradise figures little in the minds of most Christians.

You think wrong. JW’s do teach that only 144,000 will rein in heaven with God/Jesus. Which is funny, because when they first started their religion they could tell their followers that perhaps some of them would be among the elect chosen to be one of the 144,000. Of course, as their numbers grew, people could see that there would not be much room for all of them, so they then started pushing the paradise earth option. Plan B, I guess. Of course the original JW’s also told their followers the world would end in 1914, 1918, 1925, and 1975. Oops. Finally, after 1975, they stopped attempting to predict end times. Smart move.


The idea of paradise earth does not figure little in the minds of Christians, it simply isn’t the best part! The best part is not some physical utopia rather the best part of the beatific vision will be being with God, our Father. JW’s depict a beautiful earth that looks an awful lot like Hawaii. Christians however realize heaven will be much more than that. Eye has not seen, nor ear heard . . .


“It has been said the best way to prepare ourselves for the life to come is to cultivate our capacity for surprise.� -Bishop Robert Baron

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]

Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

Me! I admit it – I want more! And based on what has been revealed to us, we shall get so much more . . .

I wanted to post in this thread some Catholic ideas regarding the here after. The JW pamphlets spell out quite confidently exactly what our life after we die will be like, leading some to assume we will reside in a resort like environment, living in mansions, eating and having sexual intercourse and as many babies as we like, etc. I think such thoughts perhaps miss the beatific vision that awaits us. . . .

Everything on earth is analogous to something in Heaven. Heaven neither simply removes nor simply continues earthly things. If we apply this principle to sexual intercourse, we get the conclusion that intercourse on earth is a shadow or symbol of intercourse in Heaven. Could we speculate about what that could be?

Animal reasons for intercourse include (i) the conscious drive for pleasure and (2) the unconscious drive to perpetuate the species. Both would be absent in Heaven. For although there are unimaginably great pleasures in Heaven, we are not driven by them. And the species is complete in eternity: no need for breeding.

I think there will probably be millions of more adequate ways to express love than the clumsy ecstasy of fitting two bodies together like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Even the most satisfying earthly intercourse between spouses cannot perfectly express all their love. If the possibility of intercourse in Heaven is not actualized, it is only for the same reason earthly lovers do not eat candy during intercourse: there is something much better to do. The question of intercourse in Heaven is like the child's question whether you can eat candy during intercourse: a funny question only from the adult's point of view. Candy is one of children's greatest pleasures; how can they conceive a pleasure so intense that it renders candy irrelevant? Only if you know both can you compare two things, and all those who have tasted both the delights of physical intercourse with the earthly beloved and the delights of spiritual intercourse with God testify that there is simply no comparison.

This spiritual intercourse with God is the ecstasy hinted at in all earthly intercourse, physical or spiritual. It is the ultimate reason why sexual passion is so strong, so different from other passions, so heavy with suggestions of profound meanings that just elude our grasp. No mere practical needs account for it. No mere animal drive explains it. No animal falls in love, writes profound romantic poetry, or sees sex as a symbol of the ultimate meaning of life because no animal is made in the image of God. Human sexuality is that image, and human sexuality is a foretaste of that self-giving, that losing and finding the self, that oneness-in-manyness that is the heart of the life and joy of the Trinity. That is what we long for; that is why we tremble to stand outside ourselves in the other, to give our whole selves, body and soul: because we are images of God the sexual being. We love the other sex because God loves God.

And this earthly love is so passionate because Heaven is full of passion, of energy and dynamism. We correctly deny that God has passions in the passive sense, being moved, driven, or conditioned by them, as we are. But to think of the love that made the worlds, the love that became human, suffered alienation from itself and died to save us rebels, the love that gleams through the fanatic joy of Jesus' obedience to the will of His Father and that shines in the eyes and lives of the saints – to think of this love as any less passionate than our temporary and conditioned passions "is a most disastrous fantasy". And that consuming fire of love is our destined Husband, according to His own promise. Sex in Heaven? Indeed, and no pale, abstract, merely mental shadow of it either. Earthly sex is the shadow, and our lives are a process of thickening so that we can share in the substance, becoming Heavenly fire so that we can endure and rejoice in the Heavenly fire.

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/re ... eaven.html

Again, I think JW’s are stuck in this if I love chocolate chip cookies then clearly heaven will be unlimited chocolate chip cookies for me. But such a simplistic scenario falls to recognize that we desire chocolate chip cookies here on earth because we don’t have full control over our passions and because we settle for fleeting little pleasures here until we will be fully satisfied when we are with God. If one is in a wonderful concert, you aren’t thinking or desiring chocolate chip cookies. In fact, when you are satisfied, you don’t crave chocolate chips – you wouldn’t even want a chocolate chip cookie if you are already in a state of ecstasy. Anyway, I just think JW’s are missing the boat a little. They need to realize the hereafter will not simply be an extension of our life now, minus death. There is much more to it than that. It is currently impossible to imagine what our Lord has in store for us. Faith, hope and trust are required and I shall think we will all be both surprised and amazed.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1032 by JehovahsWitness]

Many misunderstand why we say only the 144,000 will go to heaven, and think we believe only 14r,00 will be saved or only 144, 000 will be in paradise which is not true. I think this is because the idea of an EARTHLY paradise figures little in the minds of most Christians.

You think wrong. JW’s do teach that only 144,000 will rein in heaven with God/Jesus. Which is funny, because when they first started their religion they could tell their followers that perhaps some of them would be among the elect chosen to be one of the 144,000. Of course, as their numbers grew, people could see that there would not be much room for all of them, so they then started pushing the paradise earth option. Plan B, I guess. Of course the original JW’s also told their followers the world would end in 1914, 1918, 1925, and 1975. Oops. Finally, after 1975, they stopped attempting to predict end times. Smart move.


The idea of paradise earth does not figure little in the minds of Christians, it simply isn’t the best part! The best part is not some physical utopia rather the best part of the beatific vision will be being with God, our Father. JW’s depict a beautiful earth that looks an awful lot like Hawaii. Christians however realize heaven will be much more than that. Eye has not seen, nor ear heard . . .


“It has been said the best way to prepare ourselves for the life to come is to cultivate our capacity for surprise.� -Bishop Robert Baron

You think wrong, I'm sorry to say. When the Bible Students realized that not everybody wanted to go to heaven, they became aware of the earthly fulfillment of promises in the Bible, such as Isaiah 11:9-11; Isaiah 35:5,6; Psalm 37:10,11 and verse 29; Micah 4:4; etc.

The total number of 144,000 hasn't been completed even to this day. People that hoped to live on the earth forever started speaking up about it back in the 1930s, and the "great crowd" was realized. Gradually there came to be more people wanting to live on Earth rather than go to heaven. Today there are 8 million JWs that have the earthly hope.

May I ask.....What is there about being in heaven that you would prefer instead of playing with your grandkids in a your beautiful backyard with animals (that won't hurt them); sparkling pools; fruit trees unplagued by disease or birds or bugs; continuing on with whatever your favorite projects are; welcoming back loved ones and ancestors from the grave and physically hugging them? What do you envision DOING in heaven that would be better and more interesting than what you could do here on the earth?

How do you explain the above Scriptures? They seem to be speaking about life on the earth, and not in heaven.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

You think wrong, I\'m sorry to say. When the Bible Students realized that not everybody wanted to go to heaven, they became aware of the earthly fulfillment of promises in the Bible

Onewithhim, how do you not see what you’re doing as buying into the Watchtower propaganda? It doesn’t strike you as odd for someone to say as soon as there was a need (ie: they discovered some people did not want to go to heaven) the JW’s became aware of certain Bible passages? There is so much to unpack there.

First, to not recognize the 144,000 was soon to be a problem for the JW’s and second to believe that not all believers would want to be in heaven with God, and third to accept that prior to all of this the JW’s had not fully understood the Bible, but when there was a need to solve the problem of their erroneous literal interpretation of 144,000 or to provide their followers with an eternity to their liking, they confessed they hadn’t properly understood Scripture until now and now that they do they cherry pick some verses they think can help sell the whole thing. All of that doesn’t seem a little sketch to you?.

Now, a proper understanding of Sacred Scripture does not deny we shall see a new heaven and earth. This is of course true, as based on many of the passages you cite. It just does not claim it will be like the way the JW’s sell it. In fact, we are repeatedly told, it will be unlike anything we can imagine. Some of the things JW’s get wrong, in this new universe that will occur, God will have His dwelling among men. Why anyone would rather dwell with lions, and tigers, and bears than with God is beyond me. The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to us, will be eternal happiness, peace, and mutual communion. This is what we are told. Heaven and the New Earth will be the same ‘place,’ since heaven will come down to earth, and God’s dwelling will be with men, and He will live with them.

The total number of 144,000 hasn\'t been completed even to this day.

Well, no wonder ‘yall don’t sell it accurately. You act like the way The Simpson’s cartoon depicts heaven – it will be this place with harp music where everyone just stands around bored out of their minds with nothing to do. Gee, wonder why you can’t get any takers. You miss it! You completely miss the beatific vision! When we get to heaven (the new heaven & earth – the new universe) it will be far beyond some unpolluted earth. Be prepared to not necessarily find the same things enjoyable or un-enjoyable. You mention on paradise earth we shall get to play with our grandchildren. Uuumm . . . won’t my grandchildren now have grandchildren of their own? Will I be playing with my 95 year old grandchildren? Do you think there will be eternal 4 year olds running around paradise earth? We desire and long for sex here on earth because we long to love and be loved, but can you not imagine a love bigger than orgasm in heaven? I can.

144,000 was not to be interpreted literally. But once Charles Taze Russell, a part from Christ’s Church, made that error, he had to go on to continually twist Scripture to fit his initial false understanding. Of course, as I continue to ask in any thread I post in, the bigger issue is how/why would/could someone believe some guy on his own, 1000 years after Christ walked the earth, has the authority to take it upon himself to interpret the Bible (which, by the way, was given to him by my Church). He obviously trusted my Church enough to accept the Bible and to recognize the Church had the authority to give it to us all, but then he didn’t think the Church had the authority to interpret it? That doesn’t make sense. And who the heck was Charles Taze Russell? Why in the world should anyone listen to him?

People that hoped to live on the earth forever started speaking up about it back in the 1930s, and the \"great crowd\" was realized.

So, a bunch a people who were afraid of dying, and especially who were afraid of dying a JW because they were told only 144,000 of them get to heaven, started pushing back, many probably leaving or thinking what’s the point, and suddenly the JW’s got woke and realized if they just twist a few more Biblical passages, they can claim, “We have seen the light! We missed it the first time, but it has just been brought to our intention (in 1930) that we don’t have to worry about being one of the 144,000 – there might not be room for all of us in heaven (for spirits take up an awful lot of space) but there will be plenty of room for all of us in Hawaii—uuh we mean paradise earth. You won’t be with God, but no worries you can live forever with your 3 earthly kids, who will be an eternal six years old, or whatever age you liked them the best while they were on earth , and your house will be even better than Chip and Joanna Gaines. And you’ll get to play with tigers too!� So, the witnesses said, “Sign me up! The best things right now are beautiful homes, eating, and sex. We can’t imagine pleasure beyond those things, so I’m cool for more of the same, minus venereal disease and all.�

Gradually there came to be more people wanting to live on Earth rather than go to heaven.
Today there are 8 million JWs that have the earthly hope.

I seriously do not know what to make of this. Other than, clearly they do not understand the beatific vision and what awaits us.

May I ask.....What is there about being in heaven that you would prefer instead of playing with your grandkids in a your beautiful backyard with animals (that won\'t hurt them); sparkling pools; fruit trees unplagued by disease or birds or bugs; continuing on with whatever your favorite projects are; welcoming back loved ones and ancestors from the grave [b:733aff8c90][u:733aff8c90]and physically hugging them[/u:733aff8c90][/b:733aff8c90]?

Oh gosh. Where do I begin? Wouldn’t my kids be grandparents themselves? Will I be playing in the back yard with my 95 year old son? I owned a pool. We started using it less and less. Can’t really see how stamp collecting will have much meaning in eternity? What will all those scientists looking for a cure for cancer work on? Clearly, you misunderstand what heaven is AND what the new earth shall be. We will have glorified bodies – they won’t be exactly like our bodies now. Some theologians even suggest we won’t need food, or have to go to the bathroom, or still do things like we do now. The point is we don’t know. You seem to be unable to imagine much beyond what we can already know, but we are told it will be beyond all of this. You seem to be afraid you would be unhappy if you couldn’t play with your grandchildren or couldn’t have sex or couldn’t enjoy ice cream, but the point is what we do know about heaven is that we will be completely happy/fulfilled. We will be beyond satisfied/satiated. When a person feels entirely full/satisfied/fulfilled they don’t need a mansion with hundreds of rooms.

what do you envision DOING in heaven that would be better and more interesting than what you could do here on the earth?

You cannot be serious? Well, I really hope I can imagine more than this place. I love my life, but don’t you get it? All the things here we love/enjoy pale in comparison to what awaits us. Our spouses, our children, our pets, our homes, even the best tasting food we ever eat down here will be nothing like what we can expect in the hereafter. Half the things we do down here are due to our longing for what’s up there. We long to love and be loved here, because God is love. So, even the best relationship we have down here, it is imperfect. It leaves us for all our days here longing for that perfect love that awaits us. Why in the world should we expect more of the same? We were meant to be with our Lord.

ca you explain the above Scriptures? They seem to be speaking about life on the earth, and not in heaven.

I absolutely can and already have to some extent. JW’s take literal what is not meant as literal and they misinterpret, twist, etc. other stuff. A new heaven and earth does not mean one place for spirits and God and the rest of us reside in cleaned up planet earth. That is an incorrect interpretation and one JW’s make without authority to do so.

The Bible existed long before JW’s got their hands on it. Why do you think you should listen to the JW’s? Because they tell you something you think sounds nice? You get to spend eternity in Disneyland and if you renounce God you won’t go to hell, you’ll just cease to be? Can’t you imagine better than an eternal Disney Land? You don’t think the creator of the universe can do better than that? Heck, there might even be other creatures on other planets that we’ll find out about. We have been told there is so much we don’t know nor can imagine. Why do JW’s hold such a narrow, specific possibility?

And kind of like one of the excerpts from an article in a previous post explains, it’s kind of like a kid saying, “I wouldn’t want to have sex if I couldn’t eat candy during sex�. For the kid, eating candy is the ultimate pleasure, so he is unable to imagine that there could be a greater pleasure where he will not want/desire candy. And yet that is what I’m saying. Your entire premise is, “Who wouldn’t want to live on a paradise earth?� sounding very similar to the kid thinking why would anyone want to have sex if there is candy. I wouldn’t want to live on a paradise earth (at least the JW depiction) because I know there is more. I was made for more. I might not understand what that more is yet, but I can at least recognize there is more.