New Covenant

[tryme]

This question comes from a reading of Jeremiah 31 , specifically verse 34 that says

They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,

I was always taught that this was speaking of the new covenant especially the quote I will write my laws on their heart but this all sounds to me a lot like the millennial kingdom in that No one has to even be taught any religion, and everyone is just born believes and knows. What do you think?

[PinSeeker]

No one will ever see the kingdom unless/until they are "born again". That's what you're waiting for.

Why should I wait for something I've already received?

What have you received? If you haven't received the kingdom, you haven't actually received much of anything. The waiting spotlights the reality.

Well, I've received forgiveness for my sins, I've received Jesus as my Savior and my King, and I've received the gift of faith and new life in the Spirit. In short, I've been born again. Every Christian with a truly regenerate heart has been.

Actually, if someone really is waiting for it, then that's evidence they have already been born again. When one's heart is regenerated by God via His Spirit, this is the result: one is born again.

Uh, no. There is no waiting when one is born again. Being born again is not the result. It is the means.

Well, yes. But rather than the means, it's the cause. So, what I'm saying is, if a person is really concerned about being born again, and knows he needs to repent of his sins and believe on Christ, than that is evidence that his heart is truly regenerate of God by His Spirit.

Following Christ is a consequence of discovering the kingdom, but too many people still think they can keep their junk and follow Christ. They're only deceiving themselves.

Well, following Christ is a result of being born again. But I agree with you that there are many who don't truly repent of their sin and deceive themselves.

Do you think there are folks walking around today who are sinless? And if so, why?

Yes...

You are sadly mistaken. That doesn't mean you're not a Christian, but you're underestimating what sin is.

This is a trivial thing, really, but proves the point -- If someone cuts you off in traffic, what's your first reaction? Wait; let me guess: it's "IIIII LOVE that guy! He's such a beautiful person, made in God's image! All praise and thanks be to God!' No, I'm sure that's not your reaction... at least not your first reaction...

Okay, that's enough. Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Being born again into the Kingdom of God is a two-step process. The first step is to be born as a human being:

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)

Man is the only animal mentioned as capable of being born again and seeing the Kingdom of God. So the first step to becoming a member of the Kingdom of God is to be born as a man or woman and not some other animal. However, man cannot enter the Kingdom of God in his present flesh and blood body:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. (I Corinthians 15:50)

The Bible identifies two types of beings, natural and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

So there are two body types, natural (or physical) and spiritual, and each type requires a separate and distinct birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

The scriptures state that man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. What type of birth must this be? There are only two body types, physical and spiritual, and man is born originally as a physical flesh and blood body. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God! So as initially born, man cannot see the Kingdom of God. Therefore, for man to enter the Kingdom of God he must abandon his physical body and be born again as the only remaining body type, a spiritual body! It is so logically simple! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the Kingdom of God because only spiritual beings may enter that kingdom!

The scriptures never state that men are born of the flesh and the spirit combined, nor does it state that men are born of the flesh and the soul combined! Anything born of the flesh is flesh. Man is flesh! Anything born of the Spirit is spirit. God and the angels are spirits. The product of any birth is identical to the type of birth which created that product. Flesh births produce flesh bodies. Spiritual births produce spiritual bodies. How simple can it be! Man, under Satan's influence, has great difficulty accepting this logically simple truth!

God originally created all angels which would ever be needed. These angels had no means of reproduction. If all angels needed were produced originally, and each would live for eternity, then there would never be any reason to reproduce more! Then a third of the angels rebelled under Satan's leadership! Heaven, we have a problem! Replacements are now being produced in a two-step process.

The first step is a physical birth which gains one entry into the kingdom of man. Step two is a spiritual birth into the Kingdom of God. If men accept Jesus as their Savior, their names are written in the book of life and they become heirs to eternal life. They are born initially as a physical body and will be born again as a spiritual body upon the return of Jesus:

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me. (Revelation 22:12)

That reward is eternal life:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

The only life which is everlasting is spiritual life! Spiritual life requires a spiritual body, and spiritual bodies require a spiritual birth. When men are born of the spirit, it will be man's second birth, thus man is born again.

Nicodemus did not understand how someone could be born again, so he specifically asked Jesus that question. Jesus gave him a straightforward answer. This is the definition of being born again:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:5-6)

The first, and obvious birth, is a physical process involving water. We are composed of approximately 70% water, and carried in water in the womb. All humans who have been born since the creation of Adam and Eve have been "born of water." This first birth gets us into the animal kingdom as Homo sapiens, or man.

No bodies have been created directly as spiritual bodies since the angels were created. God will not create more angels directly and risk being stuck with more rebels for eternity. Man must now accept the rule and authority of God as a prerequisite for becoming immortal! Therefore, future spiritual bodies will be produced from humans who accept Jesus as their Savior from death. That is, we must accept Jesus and His authority over us prior to receiving everlasting life. Christians will receive everlasting life when born again as spirits at, or after, Jesus' Second Coming. Until that time, humans who have died are simply dead! Christians are presently heirs to the Kingdom of God. Humans who do not accept Jesus will die the second death described in the book of Revelation and that will be the end of them forever. Jesus and these newly born spirits will then continue the work originally assigned to Satan and the rebellious angels.

Why is Satan fighting desperately to derail God's plan? The answer is obvious. God's plan is creating the spiritual bodies which will replace Satan and his rebellious angels! These future spirits will be the enemies of Satan. The scriptures give some characteristics of these born again spiritual bodies:

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Roughly 50% of United States citizens claim to be "born again Christians." Does the above verse describe 50% of United States citizens? Are they spirits or ghosts that come and go invisibly as the wind? Also note that when referring to those to be born again of the Spirit, Jesus does not refer to them as men. He says, "so is every one that is born of the Spirit." Men do not have spiritual bodies! Once born of the Spirit, you no longer need your physical body. Being subject to physical laws, a physical body is a hindrance in the spiritual world. One cannot move as the wind with an attached physical body. These would be handicapped spirits.

Nicodemus asked for additional information concerning spiritual rebirth, but Jesus refused to answer his question directly. His reply was that Nicodemus would not understand heavenly matters:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? (John 3:11-12)

Jesus and the apostles have been teaching of earthly matters and the Pharisees have not understood. If they cannot understand earthly teachings which are of their world, why should it be expected that they would understand heavenly things which are of a different world? Therefore, Jesus does not answer His question.

Sadly, this remains the situation two thousand years later. Man in general still does not understand the process of being born again!

[brianbbs67]

God said His law was perfect and eternal and for all time throughout Isreal's generations. God never changes. Why would His law? The back of the book must match the front or it must be tossed. The whole of Psalm 119 is a great read. Here's a quote:

https://biblehub.com/psalms/119-160.htm

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 31 by myth-one.com]

for man to enter the Kingdom of God he must abandon his physical body and be born again as the only remaining body type, a spiritual body! It is so logically simple! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the Kingdom of God because only spiritual beings may enter that kingdom!

Sure, but you're forgetting a most crucial instruction from Christ, i.e. "deny yourself". This is what happens when one is born again, or spiritually begotten of God. The identity you've had from the beginning of your physical birth, or rather the one you developed as an infant, no longer exists. In fact, it never did actually exist as anything other than an idea.

Man is flesh! Anything born of the Spirit is spirit.

So by your logic, when one is born of the Spirit, they are no longer a human being? Jesus was no longer a man?

Man, under Satan's influence, has great difficulty accepting this logically simple truth!

Evidently, from your reasoning, it is impossible to understand until they are no longer human beings.

Nicodemus did not understand how someone could be born again, so he specifically asked Jesus that question.

Nicodemus specifically thought Jesus was referring to a physical rebirth. Jesus statements deal figuratively with a spiritual birth

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:5-6)

The first, and obvious birth, is a physical process involving water. We are composed of approximately 70% water, and carried in water in the womb. All humans who have been born since the creation of Adam and Eve have been "born of water." This first birth gets us into the animal kingdom as Homo sapiens, or man.

Sure, but comletely irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the "water" referred to in "water and spirit". The context proves this to be the case. Nicodemus asked Jesus a simple straightforward question, and Jesus gave him the answer. Jesus didn't need to point out the obvious fact that Nicodemus needed to be born physically as Nicodemus was already physically born. Your analysis ignores the fact that all the celestial host of heaven including the Father, and the Holy Ghost will never be born in the flesh. They will never be composed of a molecule of water, nor do they need to be in order to enter into the kingdom of God.

If someone drives up to you and asks directions, you don't need to point out that they will need to drive to their destination, do you? No, because they are already in a car driving. The same holds true for Jesus' reply to Nicodemus. Jesus doesn't need to point out that Nicodemus needs to be born physically. He's already been born physically. Nicodemus doesn't need to check that off on his "Things to do to be born again" list.

No bodies have been created directly as spiritual bodies since the angels were created. God will not create more angels directly and risk being stuck with more rebels for eternity.

Right, so he creates human beings so he can be stuck with them as rebels for eternity, right? This is what you've already pointed out with your philosophy on death.

Man must now accept the rule and authority of God as a prerequisite for becoming immortal!

Not just immortal, but immortally saved or immortally damned, right?

Therefore, future spiritual bodies will be produced from humans who accept Jesus as their Savior from death. That is, we must accept Jesus and His authority over us prior to receiving everlasting life.

Uh, no. If one is dead in their sins, they cannot accept anything. They're dead. First comes regenerataion, then acceptance. The carnal mind is enmity against God. It can never do anything to please God, even repent. Therefore the Holy Spirit must regenerate, or create anew the "new creature in Christ" who is then able to stand up and walk out of their burial shrouds just like Lazarus did at Christ's calling.

Humans who do not accept Jesus will die the second death described in the book of Revelation and that will be the end of them forever.

News to me. You alrady said they would live forever in eternal torment. Which is it? Are they dead forever, or eternally tormented?

Jesus and these newly born spirits will then continue the work originally assigned to Satan and the rebellious angels.

You might want to rephrase that. The work assigned to Satan and his rebellious angels was rebellion. Satan didn't get his new name from being righteous or obedient.

future spirits will be the enemies of Satan.

So you're not the enemy of Satan at this moment? That may turn out to be a problem later on...

The scriptures give some characteristics of these born again spiritual bodies:


The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Where did it say anything about spiritual bodies?

Are they spirits or ghosts that come and go invisibly as the wind?

"Wind" is a bad translation. The word for wind in the Greek is "anima". The word beginning the sentence is the exact same as that ending the sentence; "pneuma". This is for emphasis. It is what is known as "Encircling" or "Epanadiplosis". The sentence should read:

" The Spirit breathes where he will (wind has no will), you hear his voice, but can't tell where it comes from or where it goes: so it is with everyone who is begotten of the Spirit"

Jesus does not refer to them as men.

He doesn't state that they have spiritual bodies either.

He says, "so is every one that is born of the Spirit." Men do not have spiritual bodies!

Born really isn't the correct term either. Father's beget, mothers give birth.

Once born of the Spirit, you no longer need your physical body. Being subject to physical laws, a physical body is a hindrance in the spiritual world. One cannot move as the wind with an attached physical body. These would be handicapped spirits.

Exactly! Now you should be able to see that he's talking about living life now, especially when he points out that you will necessarily have to deny your very life. You can't have eternal life unless and until you are ready to discard your life. It must be counted as nothing. There is no better illustration than the crucifixion of the body. Paul calls it a "daily sacrifice".

Man in general...

And you in particular.

... still does not understand the process of being born again!

Right, but this is due to willful ignorance of the texts themselves. When Christ points out that one must be "begotten of water and spirit", he isn't referring to a physical birth (as Nicodemus thought), but exclusively of a spiritual begetting. Again, Fathers beget sons, and so while the figure is relating to the physical, it is "spiritual water". The author is using the figure Hendiadys which means "two for one". Two things are articulated i.e. "water and spirit", but only one thing is meant, i.e. "spiritual water". We know this is the case because he distinguishes what he is talking about which is the spirit from the flesh, and in vs. 8 it is explicitly stated with no reference to the flesh at all.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 30 by PinSeeker]

...shut off from the presence of the Lord means death. The lord is life itself.

Right, but it does not mean ceasing to exist.

A distinction with no effective difference. When life leaves a body, does the body cease to exist? No, but it's still dead. If a spirit is cut off from life, does it still exist? Who knows, but the fact remains that to be cut off from life doesn't mean to continue to live.

I've received forgiveness for my sins, I've received Jesus as my Savior and my King, and I've received the gift of faith and new life in the Spirit. In short, I've been born again. Every Christian with a truly regenerate heart has been.

Interesting assertions. If Jesus is your king, then you presumably obey his commandments, correct? New life in the Spirit necessarily means that you will never sin. If you think otherwise, then I would direct you to Hebrews 10:26 where the author plainly points out a fundamental aspect of the law which Christ came to fulfill, i.e. those who sin willfully are not covered by Christ's sacrifice under the new covenant. The new covenant is guaranteed by God himself to a life of perfect obedience to his commandments.

As Paul points out those who "walk after the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh". In other words, they don't sin. Therefore the "law that was added because of transgressions" has become redundant to those who no longer sin. No sin requires no sacrifice. Those who continue to sin due to their own insistence to work their way into heaven not only fail, but must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins. Those believers who continue to sin have not been "begotten from above" spiritually. They are not yet regenerated. They do not yet have the heart to serve God with perfect obedience. Each in their order. Just because you continue to sin doesn't mean everyone else does as well. Just because you're tempted to yoke an ox with a jackass doesn't mean anyone else will find that tempting.

if a person is really concerned about being born again, and knows he needs to repent of his sins and believe on Christ, than that is evidence that his heart is truly regenerate of God by His Spirit.

Nope. No one can repent of their sins without having it given to them in the first place. Repentance is a gift from God, and the carnal mind may think they are repenting, but repentance has then become a work rather than a gift, and no one can be redeemed until they have been given the gift of repentance which then allows them to repent from all their damnable righteous works. There are plenty of people who become obessesed with being born again, and their need for repentance, and this compels them to sin all the more. They are vessels fitted for destruction. The gospel compels some to repent while compelling others to sin. Everyone is not given ears to hear the gospel.

there are many who don't truly repent of their sin and deceive themselves.

Yep, the road is wide, and one need look no further than their own mirror to see the chief sinner.

Do you think there are folks walking around today who are sinless? And if so, why?

Yes...

You are sadly mistaken. That doesn't mean you're not a Christian, but you're underestimating what sin is.

Speak for yourself. I never claimed to be a Christian. None of Christ's followers were Christians, and they never referred to themselves as such. They adopted Christ. They referred to themselves as "the way", but were deadnamed in derision by the pagans in Antioch. To each their own.

This is a trivial thing, really, but proves the point -- If someone cuts you off in traffic, what's your first reaction? Wait; let me guess: it's "IIIII LOVE that guy! He's such a beautiful person, made in God's image! All praise and thanks be to God!' No, I'm sure that's not your reaction... at least not your first reaction...

Again, you really need to speak for yourself. It needs to be pointed out that what you are posting is what is coming from your heart, not mine. I remember these sentiments you speak of, but people make mistakes, and some people are in a rush for good reason. I don't know what's in anyone else's heart so I don't need to judge them. I know what's in my heart though, and if it is judgement that is emanating from my heart, then there's a problem.

Regeneration is about seeing that grace doesn't allow me to sin with impunity anymore. It conforms everyone to the image of Christ, even the hill billy tossing garbage out the window of is 4 x 4 pickup truck. When those born of the Spirit see Christ in everyone they meet, the gospel is proclaimed. The hill billy will then see that he has infinite worth in a world that is precious and sacred. The guy looking for pole position will be content with sitting in back of the pack.

Here's another example of what happens as you are conformed to Christ. Let's say you have some puppies. They're cute and adorable. You love them, but they chew on the furniture. They pee on the carpet. They fight with each other. Some people get bent out of shape completely and beat their dogs, but they're obviously depraved. Most people's first reaction is something along the lines of an admission that they need to pay more attention to their puppies's house training, but cleaning up after them is an act of love. They would rather clean up after their pets than lose them.

It's the same with children. You love your children while you're cleaning their dirty diapers. You love them while you're breaking up a squabble between them. You may even look at them while they're fighting and have nothing but overflowing love for them. That's what happens when the love of Christ spreads to rush hour traffic. You see the silly self absorbed fool struggling for pole position only to end up right beside you at the next light.

When we can see ourselves doing the same thing, we grow out of it, and see that they're not really such a bad person after all. We've been forgiven, and this compels us to forgive others to the point where we don't even notice the transgressions of others. There is no need to forgive what has been covered by God. Christ died for those who are yet still sinning. His sacrifice covers it all, and those who are begotten of God reflect God, not the fallen world around them.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 31 by myth-one.com]

for man to enter the Kingdom of God he must abandon his physical body and be born again as the only remaining body type, a spiritual body! It is so logically simple! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the Kingdom of God because only spiritual beings may enter that kingdom!

You're forgetting a most crucial instruction from Christ, i.e. "deny yourself". This is what happens when one is born again, or spiritually begotten of God. The identity you've had from the beginning of your physical birth, or rather the one you developed as an infant, no longer exists. In fact, it never did actually exist as anything other than an idea. The battle today is against those spiritual powers in high places, and you cannot battle them with the flesh. You can't battle them after your dead either so now is not the time to wait.

Man is flesh! Anything born of the Spirit is spirit.

So by your logic, when one is born of the Spirit, they are no longer a human being? Jesus was no longer a man?

Man, under Satan's influence, has great difficulty accepting this logically simple truth!

Evidently, from your reasoning, it is impossible to understand until they are no longer human beings.

Nicodemus did not understand how someone could be born again, so he specifically asked Jesus that question.

Nicodemus specifically thought Jesus was referring to a physical rebirth. Jesus statements deal figuratively with a spiritual birth.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:5-6)

The first, and obvious birth, is a physical process involving water. We are composed of approximately 70% water, and carried in water in the womb. All humans who have been born since the creation of Adam and Eve have been "born of water." This first birth gets us into the animal kingdom as Homo sapiens, or man.

Sure, but completely irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the "water" referred to in "water and spirit". The context proves this to be the case. Nicodemus asked Jesus a simple straightforward question, and Jesus gave him the answer. Jesus didn't need to point out the obvious fact that Nicodemus needed to be born physically as Nicodemus was already physically born. Your analysis ignores the fact that all the celestial host of heaven including the Father, and the Holy Ghost will never be born in the flesh. They will never be composed of a molecule of water, nor do they need to be in order to enter into the kingdom of God.

If someone drives up to you and asks directions, you don't need to point out that they will need to drive to their destination, do you? No, because they are already in a car driving. The same holds true for Jesus' reply to Nicodemus. Jesus doesn't need to point out that Nicodemus needs to be born physically. He's already been born physically. Nicodemus doesn't need to check that off on his "Things to do to be born again" list.

No bodies have been created directly as spiritual bodies since the angels were created. God will not create more angels directly and risk being stuck with more rebels for eternity.

Right, so he creates human beings so he can be stuck with them as rebels for eternity, right? This is what you've already pointed out with your philosophy on death.

Man must now accept the rule and authority of God as a prerequisite for becoming immortal!

Not just immortal, but immortally saved or immortally damned, right?

Therefore, future spiritual bodies will be produced from humans who accept Jesus as their Savior from death. That is, we must accept Jesus and His authority over us prior to receiving everlasting life.

Uh, no. If one is dead in their sins, they cannot accept anything. They're dead. First comes regenerataion, then acceptance. The carnal mind is enmity against God. It can never do anything to please God, even repent. Therefore the Holy Spirit must regenerate, or create anew the "new creature in Christ" who is then able to stand up and walk out of their burial shrouds just like Lazarus did at Christ's calling.

Humans who do not accept Jesus will die the second death described in the book of Revelation and that will be the end of them forever.

News to me. You alrady said they would live forever in eternal torment. Which is it? Are they dead forever, or eternally tormented?

Jesus and these newly born spirits will then continue the work originally assigned to Satan and the rebellious angels.

You might want to rephrase that. The work assigned to Satan and his rebellious angels was rebellion. Satan didn't get his new name from being righteous or obedient.

future spirits will be the enemies of Satan.

So you're not the enemy of Satan at this moment? That may turn out to be a problem later on...

The scriptures give some characteristics of these born again spiritual bodies:


The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Where did it say anything about spiritual bodies?

Are they spirits or ghosts that come and go invisibly as the wind?

"Wind" is a bad translation. The word for wind in the Greek is "anima". The word beginning the sentence is the exact same as that ending the sentence; "pneuma". This is for emphasis. It is what is known as "Encircling" or "Epanadiplosis". The sentence should read:

" The Spirit breathes where he will (wind has no will), you hear his voice, but can't tell where it comes from or where it goes: so it is with everyone who is begotten of the Spirit"

Jesus does not refer to them as men.

He doesn't state that they have spiritual bodies either.

He says, "so is every one that is born of the Spirit." Men do not have spiritual bodies!

Born really isn't the correct term either. Father's beget, mothers give birth.

Once born of the Spirit, you no longer need your physical body. Being subject to physical laws, a physical body is a hindrance in the spiritual world. One cannot move as the wind with an attached physical body. These would be handicapped spirits.

Exactly! Now you should be able to see that he's talking about living life now, especially when he points out that you will necessarily have to deny your very life. You can't have eternal life unless and until you are ready to discard your life. It must be counted as nothing. There is no better illustration than the crucifixion of the body. Paul calls it a "daily sacrifice".

Man in general...

And you in particular.

... still does not understand the process of being born again!

Right, but this is due to willful ignorance of the texts themselves. When Christ points out that one must be "begotten of water and spirit", he isn't referring to a physical birth (as Nicodemus thought), but exclusively of a spiritual begetting. Again, Fathers beget sons, and so while the figure is relating to the physical, it is "spiritual water". The author is using the figure Hendiadys which means "two for one". Two things are articulated i.e. "water and spirit", but only one thing is meant, i.e. "spiritual water". We know this is the case because he distinguishes what he is talking about which is the spirit from the flesh, and in vs. 8 it is explicitly stated with no reference to the flesh at all.

[myth-one.com]

This is what happens when one is born again, . . .

But no human has yet been born again of the Spirit.

Man is flesh! Anything born of the Spirit is spirit.

So by your logic, when one is born of the Spirit, they are no longer a human being?

Correct according to the scriptures, the natural body comes first and is then followed by the spiritual body:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

Jesus was no longer a man?

Jesus wasn't born again as a new spiritual being.

That is what He offers as a gift to those who believe in Him. Had He accepted His reward for living a sinless life, He could not also offer it to those who believe in Him as their Savior.

Man, under Satan's influence, has great difficulty accepting this logically simple truth!

Evidently, from your reasoning, it is impossible to understand until they are no longer human beings.

How so? Humans can read the Bible and understand the simply process of being born again of the Spirit.

Your analysis ignores the fact that all the celestial host of heaven including the Father, and the Holy Ghost will never be born in the flesh. They will never be composed of a molecule of water, nor do they need to be in order to enter into the kingdom of God.

Absolutely correct. They were created directly from a Spiritual birth. They were never physical beings.

No bodies have been created directly as spiritual bodies since the angels were created. God will not create more angels directly and risk being stuck with more rebels for eternity.

Right, so he creates human beings so he can be stuck with them as rebels for eternity, right? This is what you've already pointed out with your philosophy on death.

Nope. Man can be destroyed! No one can be stuck with any human eternally.

Do you know any human who will live forever?

Man must now accept the rule and authority of God as a prerequisite for becoming immortal!

Not just immortal, but immortally saved or immortally damned, right?

No. The angels were created directly as immortal spiritual beings.

Man was created as natural physical beings which are mortal. The unsaved will simply perish in the "second death." That will be their choice. God will honor their choice.

Therefore, future spiritual bodies will be produced from humans who accept Jesus as their Savior from death. That is, we must accept Jesus and His authority over us prior to receiving everlasting life.

Uh, no. If one is dead in their sins, they cannot accept anything.

If the unsaved cannot accept anything, then how can they accept Jesus as their Savior?

Humans who do not accept Jesus will die the second death described in the book of Revelation and that will be the end of them forever.

News to me. You already said they would live forever in eternal torment.

I have never stated that!!!!

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant -- Random House College Dictionary.

Nonbelievers die, perish, cease life. Call it annihilation if you want to.

The only being specifically stated to be tormented eternally is the devil:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It will not be physical torture as the devil is not a physical being.

Jesus and these newly born spirits will then continue the work originally assigned to Satan and the rebellious angels.

You might want to rephrase that. The work assigned to Satan and his rebellious angels was rebellion.

That's funny. If they were assigned to rebel, then their rebellion was not rebellious!

Future spirits will be the enemies of Satan.

So you're not the enemy of Satan at this moment?

Yes, but I'm not yet a spirit.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Where did it say anything about spiritual bodies?

Here is the definition of a spiritual body:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

So "one that is born of the Spirit" is a spirit!

Once born of the Spirit, you no longer need your physical body. Being subject to physical laws, a physical body is a hindrance in the spiritual world. One cannot move as the wind with an attached physical body. These would be handicapped spirits.

Exactly! Now you should be able to see that he's talking about living life now, . . .

No, he is not. Paul understands that believers will be resurrected to everlasting life at the Second Coming! It is not something any human has at present. Christians are presently heirs to everlasting life.

Once given, one has everlasting life and no longer has any need for a short term physical body.

When Christ points out that one must be "begotten of water and spirit", he isn't referring to a physical birth (as Nicodemus thought), but exclusively of a spiritual begetting.

No, He is talking about TWO births!!

The first birth is a physical birth.

The second is a spiritual birth.

We must be born as humans first, then born again of the Spirit as a spirit.

Then, and only then do we have everlasting life. Everlasting life meaning we can never perish.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 36 by myth-one.com]

Humans can read the Bible and understand the simply process of being born again of the Spirit.

Sure, but we aren't really disagreeing with the fact that one comes after the other. We're disagreeing as to when the latter occurs. You seem to believe that one cannot be born of the spirit until one is dead in the flesh literally. I don't see why this is necessarily the case, especially given that the flesh will never succeed in battling the spirit. It is the spirit that wins over the flesh. The carnal mind is enmity against God, therefore under your premise we are all enemies of God regardless of what we understand. Our understanding will not save anyone.

shnarkle wrote:
Your analysis ignores the fact that all the celestial host of heaven including the Father, and the Holy Ghost will never be born in the flesh. They will never be composed of a molecule of water, nor do they need to be in order to enter into the kingdom of God.

Absolutely correct. They were created directly from a Spiritual birth. They were never physical beings.

So again, your interpretation fails for the salient fact that this notion of yours that one must be born physically before one is born spiritually doesn't hold water. It fails for the same reason that Jesus would never point out to Nicodemus that he's not a spirit so he doesn't need to point out that spirit beings will never need to be born of the flesh. This is why he doesn't have to point out to a person who is already born physically that they will need to be born physically.

Man can be destroyed! No one can be stuck with any human eternally.

Do you know any human who will live forever?

No, and I suppose this would include Adam even if he had never sinned. If that were the case, then it would follow that restoration is a physical immortal restoration.

Man must now accept the rule and authority of God as a prerequisite for becoming immortal!

How is that any different than the conditions of the Old Testament? Didn't they have to accept God's authority and rule as well?

The unsaved will simply perish in the "second death." That will be their choice. God will honor their choice.

So you believe that it's up to their free will decision? If this is the case, then how do you reconcile this belief with what Paul says in Romans 9, especially with regards to his comments pointing out that it is not by will or effort(vs.16)?

Therefore, future spiritual bodies will be produced from humans who accept Jesus as their Savior from death. That is, we must accept Jesus and His authority over us prior to receiving everlasting life.

I'm still not following due to the fact that you've already pointed out that humans are physical, and the physical or flesh isn't spiritual. So how does one physically accept what is spiritual when never the twain shall meet? Accepting some intellectually understood idea isn't accepting what it refers to because you have nothing more than the idea to go on. Accepting an idea doesn't cut it. God and God's kingdom are not ideas or doctrines to be accepted. The kingdom can only be accepted once it is revealed, and ideas don't reveal the kingdom itself.

Uh, no. If one is dead in their sins, they cannot accept anything.

If the unsaved cannot accept anything, then how can they accept Jesus as their Savior?

They can't. That's the whole point of Paul's doctrine of election. Spiritually dead people can't accept anything spiritual because they're carnally minded. Even if they could, it doesn't matter because Paul points out that nothing the carnally minded man will ever do will ever be acceptable to God. Paul's argument in Romans is air tight. There is nothing one can do to be saved including repenting, accepting Christ, etc. That was all under the old covenant where it was all left up to one's decision and their own efforts to insure the covenant. Paul points out that the new covenant doesn't rely upon our will or efforts, but God's promises, the faith of Christ's spirit indwelling within the new creature; not the old creature. If Christ's faith is being exercised within the new creature in Christ, then there is no point in even pointing this out if they're already dead and buried. Paul must be speaking figuratively of something that is happening at that moment.

When the Spirit descends upon the disciples on Pentecost, and they are then filled with the Holy Spirit, they are still in their physical bodies, right? It is not the flesh that allows them to speak to people in so many different languages, but the spirit. The flesh body is a temple for the spirit, and that is what is happening now, not after one dies. It is the fleshly desires that die, not the flesh itself. The physical body is the temple of the spirit. That's what Paul explicitly points out. This doesn't negate your idea that those who are begotten spiritually will one day receive spiritual bodies, but it certainly refutes your idea that this only happens once one has discarded their physical body.

You already said they would live forever in eternal torment.

I have never stated that!!!!

I think I may be getting someone else's posts mixed up with yours.

Jesus and these newly born spirits will then continue the work originally assigned to Satan and the rebellious angels....If they were assigned to rebel, then their rebellion was not rebellious!

You're not paying attention to the fact that Satan most assuredly is assigned the task of rebellion. All things work together for God's purposes and glory. What you're neglecting is the fact that Satan was not created as Satan. As soon as Satan is named Satan he is given the task to deceive and destroy. That is Satan's original task. Lucifer's original task is not Satan's original task.

shnarkle wrote:
So you're not the enemy of Satan at this moment?

Yes, but I'm not yet a spirit.

So if you're not Satan's enemy, you're satan's friend. If you're not on friendly terms, the only option left is lukewarm, neutral, etc.

John of Revelation doesn't condone or accept any of those options.

Here is the definition of a spiritual body: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

I don't see anything there talking about bodies. That which is born of the flesh is fleshly, that which is born of the spirit is spiritual.

So "one that is born of the Spirit" is a spirit!

Non sequitur. It doesn't necessarily follow. You've come to that conclusuion without any proof from the texts. You're reading that into the texts.

Once born of the Spirit, you no longer need your physical body.

Once born of the Spirit, you no longer "fulfill the lust of the flesh". If one is no longer in a flesh body, this statement is redundant and pointless, but if one is still a living breathing flesh being, then it is the gospel message.

Being subject to physical laws, a physical body is a hindrance in the spiritual world.

Not if one is "walking after the Spirit" because one "no longer fulfills the lust of the flesh".

One cannot move as the wind with an attached physical body. These would be handicapped spirits.

Not if they are no longer fulfilling the lust of the flesh. With God all things are possible, even keeping God's laws.

Paul understands that believers will be resurrected to everlasting life at the Second Coming! It is not something any human has at present. Christians are presently heirs to everlasting life.

Once given, one has everlasting life and no longer has any need for a short term physical body.

Again, this isn't what Paul is saying when he suggests that we offer up our physical bodies as a living sacrifice. It is not that the body is literally offered up and dies, but that the fleshy desires are offered up so that sin is not given any quarter in one's life today. When that happens, one "walks after the spirit and does not fulfill the lust of the flesh". He's talking about the life we live in this temple of flesh that houses the spirit. He explicitly states that so this whole idea of spiritual bodies is irrelevant. The fact is that the spirit dwells in our fleshly temples which is what prevents us from sinning. It's what enables us to keep God's commandments perfectly. This is explicitly what the new covenant points out. (See Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekial 11;19;36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10)

When Christ points out that one must be "begotten of water and spirit", he isn't referring to a physical birth (as Nicodemus thought), but exclusively of a spiritual begetting.

No, He is talking about TWO births!!

The first birth is a physical birth.

The second is a spiritual birth.

We must be born as humans first, then born again of the Spirit as a spirit.

Then, and only then do we have everlasting life. Everlasting life meaning we can never perish.

Sorry, but your interpretation makes no sense for the salient reason that none of us need to be born physically. Go ahead and point out one single person who has been born physically who has to be born physically again. You're making the same mistake Nicodemus made. He thought he had to return to his mother's womb and be born physically again as well, and you're making the same claim.

Again, there is no need for a first physical birth for those who are born spiritually to begin with, e.g. angels. Then there's God who has not beginning or end.

There is no need for Christ to point out that anyone needs to be born physically if we're already born physically. It's redundant and pointless. He is explicitly pointing out that one must be born spiritually or spiritual water (as opposed to physical water). He then points out that what is flesh is fleshly and what is spirit is spiritual. He never says, "What is flesh is flesh, THEN what is spirit is spiritual". To further emphasise the point, he then points out that the spirit breathes where he will, but no one knows where it comes from or where it goes so too is the case with those who are born of the spirit. If this is after everyone is dead in the flesh, then everyone in their spiritual bodies has no clue where they or anyone else is going. That's the logical conclusion to your theory.

A much more realistic interpretation is to see that there are people who are born spiritually right here and now, and those who are not spiritually born have no idea what they're doing or where they're going. This isn't the case for those who are born of the spirit. They know exactly where they've come from and where they're going; just as the Spirit does.

If someone drivs up in a car and asks for directions, you don't need to tell them that they will need to get a car and drive it. Jesus doesnt need to point out that Nicodemus needs to be physically born. It's not necessary to check that off of the list of things to do to see the kingdom. He's already sitting there in his physical body.

[brianbbs67]

An interesting thought occurred to me on this subject. Are we under a new covenant?? Is the law written in everyone's hearts? By actions of the world in general, I would say no.

[myth-one.com]

So again, your interpretation fails for the salient fact that this notion of yours that one must be born physically before one is born spiritually doesn't hold water.

This is the definition of being born again as stated to Nicodemus by Jesus:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:5-7)

If Nicodemus had been born as a dog into the physical world, could he ever be born again of the Spirit?

My answer would be no, only mankind can be born again of the Spirit.

This is what Jesus is saying. Our first birth must be into the physical world as a man or woman.

For any man or woman to gain everlasting life in the spiritual world, that man or woman must be born of the Spirit as a spirit into the spiritual world.

That would be our second birth -- so we will have been born again!

When the word "spirit" is capitalized in the verses, it refers to God.

So that we must be born of the flesh (another human) as flesh -- birth one.

And we must be born again of God as a spirit.

It's really that simple.

All we have to do now is be born again of the Spirit.

It's our choice.