New Covenant

[tryme]

This question comes from a reading of Jeremiah 31 , specifically verse 34 that says

They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,

I was always taught that this was speaking of the new covenant especially the quote I will write my laws on their heart but this all sounds to me a lot like the millennial kingdom in that No one has to even be taught any religion, and everyone is just born believes and knows. What do you think?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 45 by PinSeeker]

...shut off from the presence of the Lord means death. The lord is life itself.

You are arguing that the second death is a cessation of existence. That's very much incorrect. Jesus talks extensively of hell in the sense of being a very real place were folks exist outside of the presence of God. Now. If you want to say -- and maybe this is what you are saying -- that folks in hell do in fact exist, but do not have true Life, then I'd be with you on that.

You're coming up with a new definition for death. You're saying that death isn't death at all. Fine, but I don't have to pretend that death isn't death, or that being separated from life itself, allows one to continue living. Again, when the body dies, it still exists; so what? It's dead. It's a dead body. Look at those who have squandered their whole lives in sin, then look at their corpse. Usually it isn't pretty. They leave a corpse that has been tormented and tortured. Why should it be any different for a spiritual body? I don't really see it as anything more than an idea pointing to the reality which is that only the Spirit lives, but not everyone is born again. Therefore, those who aren't born again, simply die, and the spirit that animated their lives returns to the father.

Again, are you going to address the fact that death itself jumps into the lake of fire??? How about Satan turning to ashes from within??? That is not an image of contued existence. Ashes disintegrate into nothing. Nothing doesn't exist.

If Jesus is your king, then you presumably obey his commandments, correct?

Well, I try, but as is the case with every other follower of Christ in this life, I fall short. I sin.

Then you're not "born again". You're still under the conditions of the old covenant which required one to "try" by their own efforts to keep God's commandments. Again, Paul points out that we have the entire Hebrew scriptures as an example of how this can only result in falling short. Falling short is not part of the new covenant. Why? Because it isn't based upon one's efforts, but God's promise. People like to think that grace allows us to falter, repent, falter repent, etc., but grace is what conforms the new creation to the image of Christ. There is no sin in Christ, and only those who are born again, are in Christ. Those who sin must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins until they receive that new heart to keep God's commandments (see Jeremiah 31:33;Ezekial 11:19;36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10)

New life in the Spirit necessarily means that you will never sin.

Ultimately -- eventually, when we are truly glorified -- that will be true. But in this life, that's sadly not the case.

Again, speak for yourself. Just because you continue to sin doesn't mean everyone else does. It is also not correct to then assume that because you continue to sin the new covenant allows for this. The fact is that it doesn't. The purpose of the new covenant is explicitly articulated repeately in scripture, and the reason is always the same "to keep God's commandments". The old covenant relied upon one's will and effort therefore it had to be replaced by the new covenant which is based upon God's promises, and God promises to create a new heart that will keep God's commandments. There is no point in giving you this new heart in your next life when you will have no opportunity to keep commandments that are no longer necessary, e.g. adultery, theft, etc.

This is the now-and-the-not-yet of the Gospel.

That's the doctrine you believe, but it's certainly not the gospel. Jesus says the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, and the dead are risen to new life eternal. They rush headlong forcing their way into the kingdom. Nothing can stop anyone who has had the kingdom revealed to them, and nothing will keep you from sinning until that happens.

We can live now as if we no longer sin, because our identity is in Christ, but it is not yet the case that we are fully free from sin.

For the born again believer there is no other identity other than Christ. There is only Christ. You are not yet free from sin because you haven't yet received a new heart to keep God's commandments. It won't happen until you "walk after the Spirit" and only that new heart can do that. The carnal man wants to do the right thing, but it can't and even if it could, it would never please God.

The key word there is 'willfully.' This necessarily infers that in this life, followers of Christ --- still sin, but but not willfully.

Willfully is synonymous with knowingly. If one knows that what they are about to do or say is sin, then they are not covered by Christ's sacrifice. This is a fundamental principle of the Mosaic law. Intentional sin was never remedied by sacrifice.

Paul says it so well in Romans 7 -- we still yet do the things we know we should not do, and we fail to do the things we know we should not do. So we join with him in acknowledging our wretchedness and long for the day when we will truly and finally be set free from the sin that dwells in us.

And that day is the day God creates us anew with a new heart to keep his commandments. Yes it is a new life, but again, there is no giving or taking in marriage in heaven in the first place so there is no point in being given a new heart after this world is done away with. How does one remain faithful to one's spouse when they will never be able to marry in the first place? What's the point in having commandments that are useless?

As Paul points out those who "walk after the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh". In other words, they don't sin.

Well, they don't sin... willfully. But they do fall (far) short of perfection in this life; they -- we -- still sin.

It's a direct reference to the elect of God. The new creation doesn't sin at all. They cannot be decieved. They cannot sin accidentaly or inadervantly. They cannot be deceived by the father of lies. They can't make mistakes. They're a new creation. They are a creation without fault, without blemish. They are perfect because they have been conformed to the image of Christ. They are in Christ and there is no sin in Christ. I know, it sounds too good to be true. That's why so few people believe it. Again, there is only one reason God gives for the new covenant, and that is "to keep my commandments". Check it out for yourself. Nowhere does it say, "so that they may try and fail to keep my commandments"

I think you're in Galatians 5 here (correct me if I'm wrong),

Yep, he says the same thing in Romans as well.

and Paul is describing the war within between the flesh and the Spirit;

No, you're conflating what he says about believers who have not yet been reborn.

he is saying that the only way to conquer the flesh is to yield to the Spirit to keep us from doing the things we naturally want to do (the desires of the flesh).

Nope. The only way to conquer the flesh is to be born again, and that isn't something that we do. It's something that God does in, with, and through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. The rest of us must just keep on trying the best we can. We can only do the right thing because we should whereas the born again new creature does it because he's born to keep God's commandments.

This necessarily implies that we still struggle against the flesh, and drawing back on what he said in Romans 7, we still succumb to these desires far more than we should, ergo, we sin.

No, the implication is that those who struggle will inevitably fail because they are still endeavoring to keep God's commandments by one's "will and effort" (Rom.9:16).

We know we shouldn't, but we still fall to temptation from time to time, ergo, we are not sinless... yet.

Sure, but so what? Knowing we shouldn't sin is not enough to prevent one from sinning. The only way to insure that one will never sin again is to be born again, and that is something God does, not us. It is something that happens to the believer, just like being born.

Here again is the now-and-the-not-yet of the Gospel.

The now and not yet is for those who are not yet born again. We know we have an advocate in Christ due to the fact that we have placed our trust in his perfect work as well as God's promise.

Christ's atonement on the cross secured our salvation (those of us in Christ, anyway), but we need the direction and empowerment of the Holy Spirit... to make decisions and choices according to His guidance and to act with the spiritual power that the Spirit supplies.

Yep, and when that happens sin is impossible. It becomes impossible to sin.

Okay, I'm going to quote you here, but add some clarfications in bold caps:

Those who continue to sin WILLFULLY due to their own insistence to work their way into heaven fail...
ALL OF US STILL must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover OUR sins.
Those believers who continue to sin WILLFULLY have not been "begotten from above" spiritually. They are not yet regenerated; THUS THEY ARE NOT (AT LEAST NOT YET) TRUE BELIEVERS.

If that's a direct quote, then what I posted is incorrect. I should have posted that they are not yet born again believers. They are not "true" believers in the sense that they have not yet received an accurate knowledge of the truth. They still don't see what sin is doing to them and others.

The believer who continues to sin can't help it because he has not yet received the truth. He has not yet had the kingdom revealed to him. He still has no clue to the gravity of sin in his life. The true gift of repentance will not come until God reveals to the believer that his heart is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked". When one sees that their heart is darker than the pit of hell itself, then they can truly repent, and that is precisely when God provides the gift of repentance. The gift of repentance comes with the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit doesn't just point out that you're a sinner. The Holy Spirit shows you your hopeless ontological state of defiled depravity. It is nothing less than a vision of hell itself. The carnal mind is incapable of seeing any of this. The carnal mind only feels torment. The carnal sees sin as its only respite from this ever increasing torment.

When the kingdom is revealed, there can be no justification for sin, and the only way anyone can sin is by some act of self justification. When Paul points out that he is the chief sinner, he is pointing out that he is an abomination to God. No one can sin knowingly without providing themselves with some rationale, some reason, some justification to sin. This is an abomination regardless of which testmament you're operating under. The only difference is that if you're under the new testament, you're damned. This is why I don't think this is even possible in the first place. It is only possible under the old covenant. No one can come to the truth, and turn back.

If one recognizes his need for the Savior for his salvation, That's a good sign that God has opened his blind eyes, unstopped his ears, made (or is making) the lame to leap like a deer, and made (or is making) the tongue of the mute to shout for joy (Isaiah 35).

No, you're jumping the gun. When one recognizes the need for a Savior, it is not the time to jump for joy. The time to jump for joy is when the Spirit begins to indwell within the new creature in Christ. They are a new creation; brand new. Remember when the world was brand new? Remember the innocence? When one walks after the Spirit they cannot fulfill the lust of the flesh.

It is a good sign that God has at least begun His good work in the man. And, as you must know, He Who began a good work in him (you) will -- will -- bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

Sure, but what you're referring to is no different than what Israel experienced with being released from bondage in Egypt, and receiveing God's law. He began that work right there and then, or at least restarted it there and then.

The Gospel doesn't "compel" anyone to sin. The sinful nature does that.

Sure, but the fact remains that without ears to hear the gospel, they are compelled to sin. Look at people who can't hear the gospel while it is being preached to them. It's as if they're being tortured. They want nothing more than to blaspheme God and become desperate for some outlet to sin. Christ is the personification of the gospel message, and anyone who doesn't have the ears to hear it will immediately wonder what do they want with them?

Those that He doesn't quicken do not respond to the Gospel; these are the vessels fitted for destruction, the ones created for common use rather than honorable use.

Yep, they are compelled to sin. You could proclaim the gospel to them continuously, and the only thing on their mind will be to solace in sin.

You are sadly mistaken. That doesn't mean you're not a Christian, but you're underestimating what sin is.

Speak for yourself.

I AM speaking for myself!

No, you're speaking for me when you say, "you're underestimating what sin is."

You have no clue what you're talking about. You can't even begin to fathom my estimation of sin. My posts are pointing out the reality, and you can't even begin to grasp the fact that my estimation is far worse than you or I will ever be able to imagine.

And you, and all human beings. All we like sheep have gone astray, each to his own way. All fall short of the glory of God. None of us, in this life, are free from sin; far from it.

Nobody on this side of the computer screen is suggesting that anyone is free from sin. I'm pointing out that when Paul gets to the elect, he talks of sin in the past. He expicitly points this out. He even points out that for a testament to be valid, the testator must die, and his reference is explicitly with regards to the old testament. That would be the exact same one everyone tries to keep, but can only fail. That's not the case with the new testament which you keep conflating with the old. To apply the exact same conditions to the new testament only makes it just as useless as the old.

And we can live now as if it is past tense and is already the case, because, though we still sin, our identity is in Christ our Savior, and, as He said on the cross Himself, "It is finished!"

There is no sin in Christ so one doesn't have a sinful life in Christ. It is finished because the flesh is crucified, and can no longer sin. Paul says to sacrifice your body daily. A sacrificed body cannot sin. It's pinned to stakes.

Perhaps you've just been misunderstanding what I've been saying, or reading too much into it, or something like that to some degree all along.

No. I'm pointing out exactly where we disagree. We disagree upon where to rightly divide the word. I see Paul distinguishing between the believer who must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sin, and the believer who "walks after the Spirit and no longer fulfills the lust of the flesh". For the born again believer, the "law that was added because of transgressions"; "the handwriting of ordinances that were against us" is no longer necessary. For those who continue to sin, it is still absolutely necessary. You are not paying attention to the distinction between the law that is "for" our benefit when it is kept, and the law that was "added" and "against" us, the 'curse' of the law when we transgress God's commandments. See Deuteronomy 31:26, and notice where the scroll that was "a witness against" us is placed. It is not placed inside the Ark, but beside the Ark. It is not written on stone tablets, but on a "scroll" or "book".

The obligation of the law is not done away with when the curse is no longer necessary. The only difference is that we no longer keep it out of obligation, but it is kept because the new creation is created to keep it. When that happens, keeping God's law is easy, e.g. "my yoke is easy, my burden light". It is not kept in order to make anyone holy or righteous, but kept because God has made them holy and righteous.

And in recognizing the transgressions of others, we are then able to forgive and have mercy, just as God has forgiven and had mercy on us.

That's where it begins. I'm pointing out the process of sanctification. Recognition isn't necessary when there is only Christ. In other words, you're still using your intellect as a mediator when Christ is the only mediator. When Christ is mediating, there is no awareness of transgressions to begin with. The clerk flies off the handle at you and starts screaming, but you're not recognizing a transgression at all. Now you're seeing a child of God who is lost and desperately trying to free themselves from bondage. So what do you say to someone who is crying out for help? You don't recognize their transgression at all. You don't see it, and that is what throttles them from bondage like a dog shaking a rag doll. When someone is in chains, and you see through their idiotic self image to who they really are which is Christ; they snap out of it... or they go completely crazy. Either way, they either come to their senses or they self destruct.

The thing to take away from this is that there is no recognition with Christ. It is direct contact with Christ, and when one comes in direct contact with Christ, you CANNOT SIN. You can't even see sin anymore. You see Christ, and there is no sin in Christ. This is not something anybody does. It is all Christ. It is Christ steamrolling into your life, and their life, and obliterating it in the process. Then you see that your identity was nothing but a silly idea. If you don't believe the gospel, and you don't believe me. You can check out any half way decent text book on early childhood development which points out that our identities are formed in infancy and are literally nothing but abstract constructions of the mind. The whole world is deceived by this delusion.

Thanks be to God that He is faith and just to forgive all our sin.

Sure, but that's only half the gospel message. Christ and Paul don't stop there. The good news is in making "the handwriting of ordinances that were against us" redundant, and that only happens when the kingdom is revealed, and there is no sin in the kingdom. Then you walk away from your life because it was never yours to begin with.

His sacrifice covers it all, and those who are begotten of God reflect God, not the fallen world around them.

Well, Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all, but only effectual for those whom God has chosen.

I disagree. It effects everyone. When a child of God reflects God rather than the world around them, the world around them takes notice. They're effected. This is what I was referring to earlier with those vessels fitted for destruction as well. They're compelled to go crazy and sin. They can't help it. The gospel is nothing but sheer torment to them, and God graciously puts them out of their misery. That's why Paul refers to them as "vessels fitted for DESTRUCTION". They're God's clay pidgeons.

Never should it be said that Christ's work of atonement is only partially successful.

Where am I saying that? You're the one who is saying "Not now, not yet, sometime in the future when we're all dead...etc." How is the fact that I'm pointing out that God insures and promises a sin free life "only partially successful?" You're the one who keeps parroting that we must still sin for the rest of our lives. Any unbiased observer should be able to see that what I'm pointing out is way better news than what you're presenting. Granted, it's too good to be believed, but what you're presenting isn't even marginally appealing. It's less than "partially successful".

Maybe that's not what you're saying, but that's how it looks in print.

Really? How so?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 47 by PinSeeker]

You're reading Paul's words (yes, inspired by God) wrong. It's not two different bodies, but the two natures of the one body. Read the first part of that very verse (44)! IT is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body; in other words, IT -- the one body -- now contains two natures. In Paul's own words, the natural body is the Old Man (the sinful nature), and the spiritual body is the New Man (the Spiritual nature). We are struggling to put off the former and to put on the latter.

You are here equating Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15 with his words in Ephesians 4.

1 Corinthians 15 is about our future resurrection body, comparing its spiritual body with our present soulish body.

Ephesians 4 is about the two present natures a believer has, not about the body or the future.

[PinSeeker]

You're coming up with a new definition for death.

No, you're coming at this with the worldly -- physical, not spiritual -- and thus non-biblical definition of death.

You're saying that death isn't death at all.

Far, far from the case. No, I'm saying that the physical death is not the same as spiritual death.

Okay, that's enough. We disagree. Grace and peace to you.

Regarding your whole thing on sin and being born again, let me ask you this, Shnarkle: In your opinion, was King David a born-again believer? Or not? Or is there no such thing?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 47 by PinSeeker]

You're reading Paul's words (yes, inspired by God) wrong. It's not two different bodies, but the two natures of the one body. Read the first part of that very verse (44)! IT is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body; in other words, IT -- the one body -- now contains two natures. In Paul's own words, the natural body is the Old Man (the sinful nature), and the spiritual body is the New Man (the Spiritual nature). We are struggling to put off the former and to put on the latter.

You are here equating Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15 with his words in Ephesians 4.

Exactly. It's not quite a one to one correlation, but the idea is the same. Read on...

1 Corinthians 15 is about our future resurrection body, comparing its spiritual body with our present soulish body.

1 Corinthians 15 is not just about our future resurrection body -- it is, but not merely -- but also that the physical body we have is now and forever will be (in full upon our resurrection and in Eternity) -- animated and empowered by the Holy Spirit. We are struggling to put off the Old Man and put on the New at present, but that will no longer be the case in Eternity. And we are exhorted by Paul to live now as if it has already happened... because our identity is in Christ, and we have been raised up with Him and are seated with Him in the Heavenly places (Ephesians 2, Colossians 3). And this is the connection to Ephesians 4.

Ephesians 4 is about the two present natures a believer has, not about the body or the future.

Right. Sure.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 51 by PinSeeker]

you're coming at this with the worldly -- physical, not spiritual -- and thus non-biblical definition of death.

The bible speaks of God as "a consuming fire". The lake of fire consumes everyone who jumps into it, and last to jump in is death personified. Is this spiritual death personified going to be tortured and tormented for all eternity? Hmm? If I remember correctly, the grave is also tossed into the lake of fire as well. So the dwelling place of the damned is also tormented? "Turning to ashes from within" isn't exactly a picture of continued tormented existence. So your "and thus non-biblical" is baseless.

Prior to this event, what's happening? Is everyone having a party? If they're tormented prior to their lake of fire party, what's the point in waiting for judgment? Isn't Judgment Day going to be a bit anti-climactic? Was it you who made mention of the rich man in Jesus' parable? He's already in a fiery torment waiting for what, A day to be condemned to fiery torment? He's already condemned so there's no point in having another Judgment Day, or is eternal damnation something that has to be renewed periodically with parole hearings?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 53 by shnarkle]

Shnarkle, bless your heart -- and I mean that sincerely, not with any kind of sardonic or sarcastic tone. You're beliefs are your own, and you're welcome to them... as if you needed my blessing, which of course you don't. Unfortunately, however, those beliefs place you well outside the realm of orthodox Christianity, at least in the area(s) of which we have been speaking.

Here's my statement of faith, with the points that speak directly to what we've been talking about in bold print:

Statement of Faith

The sole basis of my belief is the Bible, Gods infallible written Word, the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments. I believe that it was uniquely, verbally and fully inspired by the Holy Spirit and that it was written without error (inerrant) in the original manuscripts. It is the supreme and final authority in all matters on which it speaks.

1. There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons " Father, Son, and Holy Spirit " each of whom possesses equally all the attributes of Deity and the characteristics of personality.

2. Jesus Christ is God, the living Word, who became flesh through His miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit and His virgin birth. Hence, He is perfect Deity and true humanity united in one person forever.

3. He lived a sinless life and voluntarily atoned for the sins of men by dying on the cross as their substitute, thus satisfying divine justice and accomplishing salvation for all who trust in Him alone.

4. He rose from the dead in the same body, though glorified, in which He lived and died.

5. He ascended bodily into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God the Father, where He, the only mediator between God and man, continually makes intercession for His own.

6. Man was originally created in the image of God. He sinned by disobeying God; thus, he was alienated from his Creator. That historic fall brought all mankind under divine condemnation.

7. Mans nature is corrupted, and he is thus totally unable to please God. Every man is in need of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

8. The salvation of man is wholly a work of Gods free grace and is not the work, in whole or in part, of human works or goodness or religious ceremony. God imputes His righteousness to those who put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation, and thereby justified them in His sight.

9. It is the privilege of all who are born again of the Spirit to be assured of their salvation from the very moment in which they trust Christ as their Savior. This assurance is not based upon any kind of human merit, but is produced by the witness of the Holy Spirit, who confirms in the believer the testimony of God in His written word.

10. The Holy Spirit has come into the world to reveal and glorify Christ and to apply the saving work of Christ to men. He convicts and draws sinners to Christ, imparts new life to them, continually indwells them from the moment of spiritual birth and seals them until the day of redemption. His fullness, power and control are appropriated in the believers life by faith.

11. Every believer is called to live so in the power of the indwelling Spirit that he will not fulfill the lust of the flesh but will bear fruit to the glory of God.

12. Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church, His Body, which is composed of all men, living and dead, who have been joined to Him through saving faith.

13. God admonishes His people to assemble together regularly for worship, for participation in ordinances, for edification through the Scriptures and for mutual encouragement.

14. At physical death the believer enters immediately into eternal, conscious fellowship with the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting glory and blessing.

15. At physical death the unbeliever enters immediately into eternal, conscious separation from the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting judgment and condemnation.

16. Jesus Christ will come again to the earth " personally, visibly and bodily " to consummate history and the eternal plan of God.

17. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded all believers to proclaim the Gospel throughout the world and to disciple men of every nation. The fulfillment of that Great Commission requires that all worldly and personal ambitions be subordinated to a total commitment to Him who loved us and gave Himself for us.

Grace and peace to you in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[myth-one.com]

It's not two different bodies, but the two natures of the one body.

There is a natural body, . . . . (I Corinthians 15:44)

One type of Body.

. . . and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

A second type of Body.

One plus one equals two possible type of bodies.

==============================================

Paul writes that the dead bodies of believers is sown, or buried, as a natural body:

It is sown a natural body . . .

And at the resurrection, the dead and buried natural body of believers is raised a spiritual body:

. . . it is raised a spiritual body.

The word "nature" does not appear in First Corinthians 15!

So humans have natural bodies, and believers will be resurrected with everlasting spiritual bodies.

[myth-one.com]

14. At physical death the believer enters immediately into eternal, conscious fellowship with the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting glory and blessing.

15. At physical death the unbeliever enters immediately into eternal, conscious separation from the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting judgment and condemnation.

. . . the dead know not any thing, . . .

[PinSeeker]

14. At physical death the believer enters immediately into eternal, conscious fellowship with the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting glory and blessing.

15. At physical death the unbeliever enters immediately into eternal, conscious separation from the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting judgment and condemnation.

. . . the dead know not any thing, . . .

Not sure what you think you're refuting, myth-one. As I said before, we can agree to disagree.

[myth-one.com]

14. At physical death the believer enters immediately into eternal, conscious fellowship with the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting glory and blessing.

15. At physical death the unbeliever enters immediately into eternal, conscious separation from the Lord and awaits the resurrection of his body to everlasting judgment and condemnation.

. . . the dead know not any thing, . . .

Not sure what you think you're refuting, myth-one. As I said before, we can agree to disagree.

You claim in item numbers 14 & 15 that upon their physical deaths, all humans enter into an eternal consciousness.

But the scriptures state that the dead know and are aware of nothing.

If the dead know nothing, they are not living or conscious.

So those items numbers are not true according to the scriptures.

While we can agree to disagree, I must continue to defend the scriptures.