Jesus is God

[For_The_Kingdom]

First of all, I never knew that so many suspected "unbelievers" in the Christian religion were so fascinated about whether or not Jesus is God. If you don't believe in Jesus or God, then why do you care? It blows my mind.

Anyway..

I have a Biblically simplistic way of proving that Jesus is God..

Argument from Perfection: The Bible is clear, Jesus was/is without sin (morally perfect). The argument goes like this..

1. Only God is without sin
2. Jesus is without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

#1 is virtually undisputed. #2 is Biblical based on two immediate Scriptures..

a. 2 Corin 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".

b. Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin".

Now, the idea is; if you replace Jesus' name in #2 with ANY other name in Heaven or on Earth, the proposition becomes false and the entire syllogism is false.

The conclusion is simple; in order to be God, you must be without sin..and to be without sin, you must be God. Jesus meets/met those requirements, therefore, Jesus is God.

Argument from John 14:1-9: Long story short, Jesus was constantly preaching/lecturing about "The Father this, The Father that"...until Philip finally said "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be good enough"...and Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

Jesus is saying that seeing him is the same has seeing the Father...but if the Father is on SUCH A HIGH PEDESTAL and is light years ahead of any other entity in Heaven or on Earth, how dare Jesus say "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

In other words, if the Father took on human form and made his dwelling among us on Earth, his form would be Jesus.

If the Father is God, and Jesus said to see him is to see the Father, then Jesus must also be God. This just follows logically.

Argument from Hebrews 1:3: "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.."

This is the same reasoning applied to Heb 4 (above). If God is the holiest of all holiest, how can any other being come close, must less be the "exact representation" of his being?

How can you be the "exact representation" of someone that is the epitome of holiness/righteousness...unless you yourself is also the epitome of holiness/righteousness?

Actually, you can sum up all three arguments as the "Argument from Perfection"..and of course, there are plenty of other "Trinity proof" Scriptures that I can throw in there, but I wanted to attack this from a different angel.

And lastly, as much as these arguments harmonize, they are all independent...so even if you manage to wiggle your way out of one...you still have to deal with the others.

Actually, there is no way out; Jesus is God, whether we like it or not.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 265 by For_The_Kingdom]

By simplistic, I meant "it ain't complicated at all". All it takes is a little logic and reasoning, that is all.

To me, the rationale of that is simple...but I can only speak for me, though. Can't speak for others.

Yes, others speak for themselves and some take issue with you on whether Jesus is God.

That is because they are not simplistic but simple, like those who preach in Acts.

They do not major on logic or reasoning, but on what Jesus and his followers said when directly speaking about who God is and who Jesus is.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 265 by For_The_Kingdom]

By simplistic, I meant "it ain't complicated at all". All it takes is a little logic and reasoning, that is all.

To me, the rationale of that is simple...but I can only speak for me, though. Can't speak for others.

Yes, others speak for themselves and some take issue with you on whether Jesus is God.

That is because they are not simplistic but simple, like those who preach in Acts.

They do not major on logic or reasoning, but on what Jesus and his followers said when directly speaking about who God is and who Jesus is.

RESPONSE: But unfortunately they don't really know what Jesus said since the New Testament was written about 35 to 60 years after Jesus's death by non-witnesses writing to make converts.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Yes, others speak for themselves and some take issue with you on whether Jesus is God.

And as I said before..

1. We should believe what the Bible clearly says

2. The Bible clearly says; Jesus is God (John 1:1-2 followed by John 1:14).

3. Therefore, we should believe what the Bible clearly says about Jesus being God (John 1:1-2 followed by John 1:14).

So don't take issues with me and what I said; take issues with the author of John's Gospel and what he said. Don't kill the messenger.

They do not major on logic or reasoning, but on what Jesus and his followers said when directly speaking about who God is and who Jesus is.

To see Jesus is to see the Father. Again, Jesus said that, not me. Throughout history, only a handful of people were walking around making such bold claims..and of those handful of people, all of them were committing blasphemy..except one.

[Elijah John]

Yes, others speak for themselves and some take issue with you on whether Jesus is God.

And as I said before..

1. We should believe what the Bible clearly says

2. The Bible clearly says; Jesus is God (John 1:1-2 followed by John 1:14).

3. Therefore, we should believe what the Bible clearly says about Jesus being God (John 1:1-2 followed by John 1:14).

So don't take issues with me and what I said; take issues with the author of John's Gospel and what he said. Don't kill the messenger.

They do not major on logic or reasoning, but on what Jesus and his followers said when directly speaking about who God is and who Jesus is.

To see Jesus is to see the Father. Again, Jesus said that, not me. Throughout history, only a handful of people were walking around making such bold claims..and of those handful of people, all of them were committing blasphemy..except one.

John's Jesus also said

And this is eternal life, that they know you (the Father, not Jesus) the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent

.

Did God send Himself? God is the sender, in John 17.3, not the sendee, which was Jesus.

If Jesus were including himself as "the only true God" he would have said "That they know us the only true God..." and the 2nd part of the statement would have been rendered superfluous it that were the case.

Also, no one historically was "going around calling themselves God" at not least in first century Palestine. Roman emperors perhaps, but not Jews. Historical context precludes the notion that Jesus claimed to be God.

[tigger2]

Replying to post 269 by Elijah John]

FTK wrote:

" 1. We should believe what the Bible clearly says

2. The Bible clearly says; Jesus is God (John 1:1-2 followed by John 1:14).

3. Therefore, we should believe what the Bible clearly says about Jesus being God (John 1:1-2 followed by John 1:14).

So don't take issues with me and what I said; take issues with the author of John's Gospel and what he said."

.....................................

1. Yes, we should believe what the Bible clearly says. And the Bible is what the ancient Greek NT text clearly says (not what any translator may say). The NT Greek text for all John's writings (and all Gospel writers, also) clearly uses the definite article (ho in the Greek manuscripts and 'the' in English translation) whenever he intends "God" (ho theos) in English translation. And yet he does not use ho with theos in John 1:1c!

Furthermore, John (and the other Gospel writers) intended an indefinite noun when an unmodified nominative count noun did not have the definite article (like 'man,' prophet,' 'god,' etc.).

Since NT Greek did not have an indefinite article, English translators add the English indefinite article at these places: 'a man' (John 3:4, 27), 'a prophet' (John 4:19), 'a god,' (John 1:1c,), etc. This is what John clearly wrote! Translators often ignore this truth when it affects their doctrine.

2. The Bible clearly says; the Word is a god.

3. Therefore, we should believe what the Bible clearly says about the Word being a god and the Father being the ONLY true God.

my personal study: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... r_21.html

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 265 by For_The_Kingdom]

By simplistic, I meant "it ain't complicated at all". All it takes is a little logic and reasoning, that is all.

To me, the rationale of that is simple...but I can only speak for me, though. Can't speak for others.

Yes, others speak for themselves and some take issue with you on whether Jesus is God.

That is because they are not simplistic but simple, like those who preach in Acts.

They do not major on logic or reasoning, but on what Jesus and his followers said when directly speaking about who God is and who Jesus is.

RESPONSE: But unfortunately they don't really know what Jesus said since the New Testament was written about 35 to 60 years after Jesus's death by non-witnesses writing to make converts.

Says folk like you 2000 years later.

Unfortunately they don't really know what they wax so eloquently about.

[Checkpoint]

Yes, others speak for themselves and some take issue with you on whether Jesus is God.

And as I said before..

1. We should believe what the Bible clearly says

2. The Bible clearly says; Jesus is God (John 1:1-2 followed by John 1:14).

3. Therefore, we should believe what the Bible clearly says about Jesus being God (John 1:1-2 followed by John 1:14).

So don't take issues with me and what I said; take issues with the author of John's Gospel and what he said. Don't kill the messenger.

They do not major on logic or reasoning, but on what Jesus and his followers said when directly speaking about who God is and who Jesus is.

To see Jesus is to see the Father. Again, Jesus said that, not me. Throughout history, only a handful of people were walking around making such bold claims..and of those handful of people, all of them were committing blasphemy..except one.

You started this thread with your way of establishing your claim that Jesus is God.

Yet you didn't include John 1, which you now say "clearly says about Jesus"!

John 1:1-2 is not clear but rather, has spawned differing opinions.

Jesus did not say he was the Father, or equal to Him, or that he was God the Son.

Clear verses do not result in controversy.

[myth-one.com]

myth-one.com wrote this:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

You have quoted the New World Translation, a Bible that was written to match the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Since they did not believe that Jesus was God Incarnate, they had to alter that verse.

No, I quoted from the King James Version of the Bible:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

This is how the verse from Hebrews really reads:

But there is a place where someone has testified: "What is mankind that you are mindful of them, a son of man that you care for him? You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor and put everything under their feet." In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Please note the phrase "for a little while". It refers to the fact that Jesus, as the Second person of the Trinity came to earth as both man AND God for a brief amount of time.

Every man ever born was created "for a little while."

That is opposed to the other type of beings created -- spiritual beings.

All spiritual bodied beings were created to live for eternity.

So the phrase "for a little while" identifies Jesus as a man!

If Jesus was God, then He could not fulfill His mission, and we would have no Savior!

Only a man could die and atone for the sins of humankind, . . .

We agree!!

The only sacrifice that was acceptable to God was a man without sin.

Correct again!

But since all men are sinners, that means none of us could do the job.

Until the man Jesus was born.

The only way a man could be unblemished, that is, sin-free is for him to be also God. That's why it's imperative that Jesus was BOTH man AND God.

Wrong! You correctly stated above that "Only a man could die and atone for the sins of humankind"!

So Jesus had to be a man. We both already agreed on that.

Gods are immortal. The Word was God and was made the flesh and blood man Jesus for the suffering of death:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created!

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

[polonius]

[Replying to post 265 by For_The_Kingdom]

By simplistic, I meant "it ain't complicated at all". All it takes is a little logic and reasoning, that is all.

To me, the rationale of that is simple...but I can only speak for me, though. Can't speak for others.

Yes, others speak for themselves and some take issue with you on whether Jesus is God.

That is because they are not simplistic but simple, like those who preach in Acts.

They do not major on logic or reasoning, but on what Jesus and his followers said when directly speaking about who God is and who Jesus is.

RESPONSE: But unfortunately they don't really know what Jesus said since the New Testament was written about 35 to 60 years after Jesus's death by non-witnesses writing to make converts.

Says folk like you 2000 years later.

Unfortunately they don't really know what they wax so eloquently about.

RESPONSE: Really? How many conversations that you had 35 years ago can you recall exactly?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 265 by For_The_Kingdom]

By simplistic, I meant "it ain't complicated at all". All it takes is a little logic and reasoning, that is all.

To me, the rationale of that is simple...but I can only speak for me, though. Can't speak for others.

Yes, others speak for themselves and some take issue with you on whether Jesus is God.

That is because they are not simplistic but simple, like those who preach in Acts.

They do not major on logic or reasoning, but on what Jesus and his followers said when directly speaking about who God is and who Jesus is.

RESPONSE: But unfortunately they don't really know what Jesus said since the New Testament was written about 35 to 60 years after Jesus's death by non-witnesses writing to make converts.

Says folk like you 2000 years later.

Unfortunately they don't really know what they wax so eloquently about.

RESPONSE: Really? How many conversations that you had 35 years ago can you recall exactly?

Jesus was the very opposite of some regular guy you or I might have conversations with.

What he said and did was riveting and left lasting impressions.

Impressions that would be remembered and relived "as if it were yesterday".

And regaled to others.