This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

[Overcomer]

Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and signs of the end times in Matt. 24:1-35:

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

4 Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation,[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand" 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now"and never to be equaled again.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Messiah! or, There he is! do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 So if anyone tells you, There he is, out in the wilderness, do not go out; or, Here he is, in the inner rooms, do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 Immediately after the distress of those days


the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

[peacedove]

DearCheckpoint,

When Christ spoke of "this generation", I would state that of his generation the issue of "translated beings" has everything to do with his statement. John the beloved was indeed one of those of his generation.

He did not say "His generation" but "this generation".

That is, one that has certain characteristics not measured by time but by a mindset derived from and reflecting their father.

This is a false dichotomy. The specific temporal generation, 'this generation' is the one that would both be marked by lawlessness and the outbreak of rebellion, but also 'this' generation, i.e. the his present generation that would witness the topic at hand: the destruction of the Jerusalem temple and the rebellion and the lawlessness and the coming in judgement and in salvation of his own.

The biblical and Jewish understanding is that there were times and seasons, and that there was a specific and terminal generation for rebellion, judgement and salvation. Christ's pronouncement was that 'the appointed time is fulfilled' and that the time had come in which the dead would hear his voice and come out and that the judgement would fall in his generation, before some standing there had died.

You have to ask why you need to dichotomise 'this generation' in the way you propose. The answer would appear to be that you think that we are still waiting for his coming and the end of the age, that Christ and his apostles said was for their time.

[polonius]

English Revised Version
Verily I say unto you, There be some of them that stand here, which shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

It amazing how some try to twist the plain meaning of words to attempt to prove that "This generation" was not Jesus generation (ie "some of them that stand here")

[peacedove]

English Revised Version
Verily I say unto you, There be some of them that stand here, which shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

It amazing how some try to twist the plain meaning of words to attempt to prove that "This generation" was not Jesus generation (ie "some of them that stand here")

Indeed so. You cannot get away with claiming that the 'this generation' issue is not the same as the 'some standing here' issue, as BOTH relate to the 'coming':

"For the Son of Man is going to COME with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Mat 16:27-28)

So in this case the 'some standing here' is in reference to the coming in judgement and in his kingdom.

"Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. (Mat 23:36-39)

In this case the 'this generation' is in reference to the judgement upon Jerusalem, the destruction of the Jerusalem temple, and the fulfillment of the Jewish festival calendar (i.e. harvest, judgement, atonement, gathering etc.).

This is also in fulfillment of Deut. 32, the judgement upon last days Israel for filling up the measure of her sins, to repay her for shedding the blood of God's servants, and to atone for her land and her people.

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Mat 24:34-35)

In this case 'this generation' is in reference to 'all these things' which are:
1. The coming (24:3,27,30)
2. The end of the age (24:3 = the harvest 13:39)
3. The destruction of the Jerusalem temple (24:2)
4. Wars (24:6)
5. Rebellion (24:7)
6. The new birth (24:8 i.e. the rebirth of Jerusalem, the arrival of the New Jerusalem, which is the resurrection of the dead cf. Is. 26:17-19; 66:7-13; Jer 30:6-7; Hos 13:13-14)
7. the outbreak of persecution against Christians, and times of distress and famine (24:6-12)
8. The completion of the Great Commission (24:14)
9. The coming of 'the end' and the fulfillment of the 'abomination of desolation' spoken by the prophet Daniel (24:6,14,15 i.e. 'the end' of Dan. 12, the time of the resurrection of the wise and the unwise, and when 'the power of the holy people is completely broken' and the fulfillment of the Abomination of Desolation of Dan. 12 and Dan 9, when the temple is destroyed)
10. The great tribulation (24:21 i.e. the great tribulation of Dan. 12)
11. The rise of lawlessness (24:12 i.e. the seditious, the man of lawlessness in the temple)
12. The rise of false prophets and false christs (24:5,11,24 note that false christs are rebel political figures claiming to be leading a war to establish the kingdom of God)
13. The 'coming' of the Son of Man as the light (not lightening) of the new day, i.e. the new age, rising like the sun from east to west (24:27)
14. The sun and moon darkened, the stars fall (24:29 referring not to physical events, but to the political and imperial events of the fall of the old covenant kingdom of Jerusalem/Judah)
15. The mourning of the tribes of the land (24:30 i.e. the mourning of the tribes of Israel in fulfillment Zech. 12:10-14)
16. The regathering, via the angels (24:31 i.e. the harvest regathering of Mat. 3:11-12, in which the Pharisees and the Sadducees are uprooted and thrown in the fire 3:7-10 cf. also Mat. 13)

It is not reasonable or possible to pick and choose the items on this list as whole the point of the formal promise was that ALL the things in the list happen at the same temporal generation, and that the temporal generation that it would happen was the one that was then current.

The evidence that the current generation was being referred to is overwhelming:
1. Christ referred to events that he predicted would happen, and at least most of those events actually happened in his temporal generation in the mid First Century, e.g. the fall of the Jerusalem temple, the flight from Jerusalem, the rebellion, the famine, the lawlessness, the false christs and false prophets, the persecution etc. By logic, the other events were predicted to happen at the same generation and time, unless he was a false prophet himself, or failed to deliver, those things happened at the same time.
2. Christ refers to 'this' generation, not 'that' generation. He used the near demonstrative.
3. Christ referred to his contemporaries as seeing the things he predicted: when 'you' see these things, not when 'they' see these things etc.

The connection between 'this generation' and 'the end of the age' and 'the day of judgement' can also be demonstrated from Mat. 12. The people of Jesus' generation were guilty of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because they did not repent (cf. Luke 17:25), and so they would not be forgiven in 'this age' or 'the age to come.' This means that that generation was to straddle 'this age' and 'the age to come', meaning that the last days and the last day were a period and a time in their generation, when the old age of Moses and the Law ended, and the new age of Christ and the New Covenant was fully instituted (cf. 1 Cor 10:11). More pointedly, they who rejected Christ then, and rejected the Holy Spirit being poured out in the last days of the old age would not be forgiven because the age would end before they repented, i.e. they were living in the last days then, and the last day would run out before they died, as they were caught up in the war and the deception and destruction of the end of the old age. Jesus specifically labeled that generation as 'an evil and adulterous generation' (12:39) and 'this evil generation' (12:45). This does not come from nowhere, it comes from Deut. 32, which predicted the terminal generation of Israel that would suffer judgement and receive salvation (at the time that the blood of God's servants was vindicated and avenged, which Christ said would happen at the fall of the Jerusalem temple in Mat. 23:29-39). Compare also 16:4; 17:17.

Peter identified his own generation as 'this crooked generation' in Acts 2:40. This is in the context of him defining his own time as the 'last days' (Acts 2:16-21) i.e. the days of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit and the time 'the day of the Lord' comes in judgement, but also in salvation.

Paul identified his audience as being 'in the midst of' the 'crooked and twisted generation' which again is virtually a quote of Deut. 32 (Phil. 2:15), and it was said anticipating 'the day of Christ' (2:16).

In summary 'this generation' is no mystery. It was predicted by Moses in Deut 32 to be the terminal generation, and Christ and his Apostles explicitly claimed that their generation was that terminal crooked and twisted generation, and that upon that generation would come the judgement Moses promised for it, and that in that judgement the blood of the servants of the Lord would be avenged, from Abel onward, and that by and through that judgement would come salvation.

The attempts to twist 'this generation' to be a race or a kind of people are not reasonable: the scripture uses the word to refer to a specific temporal generation that would suffer specific judgement in time, at God's appointed time. That judgement was spoken of as being the birth pains, the great tribulation, the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds, the time of the end, and it involved the rising up of two groups, the unjust (described as the rebels, the lawless, the enemies of God, Gog and Magog, the brood of vipers, the tares etc.) and the just (the remnant, the wheat, the seed of the woman, the wise, those who understood, the new Jerusalem etc.). At the end of the age battle, the rebels attack God's people, and God comes in to rescue his people, defeat his enemies and feed their bodies to the birds / maggots (Ez. 37-39; Is. 66:24; Luke 17:24-37; 1 Cor 15:24-26; Rev. 19:11-21; 20:7-9).

The testimony of Christ and the New Testament writers is that that time was their time, and that all these things were 'about to be', were arriving, were soon, near, at the door, and that they would arrive sufficiently soon to provide relief to those then suffering persecution at the hands of the unbelieving Jews. And in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophets and the law of Moses.

To understand the time statements is to suggest the nature of these events: spiritual, national, international, political and heavenly, demonstrated by the fall of the temple on earth and 'the power of the holy people' being 'completely broken' (Dan. 12:7) and 'the fall and the rising of many in Israel' (Luke 2:25) and, in respect of the Chief Priests and the Pharisees (i.e. the Jerusalem establishment / kingdom), falling upon and being crushed by the stone (Mat 21:33-45 cf. Dan. 2:33-35, 44-45).

To understand the nature of these events and the history of them is to accept the time statements as to when they were to occur in the First Century generation in connection with the rebellion of 66 and the fall of the Jerusalem temple in 70.

To understand both the time statements and the nature of the events, and to know the history of their occurrence is to accept and believe Christ's claims and identity as Israel's messiah and King of Kings and Lord of Lords, ruling in his eternal kingdom now and forever.

[polonius]

polonius wrote:

English Revised Version
Verily I say unto you, There be some of them that stand here, which shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

It amazing how some try to twist the plain meaning of words to attempt to prove that "This generation" was not Jesus generation (ie "some of them that stand here")

Indeed so. You cannot get away with claiming that the 'this generation' issue is not the same as the 'some standing here' issue, as BOTH relate to the 'coming':

"For the Son of Man is going to COME with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Mat 16:27-28)

So in this case the 'some standing here' is in reference to the coming in judgement and in his kingdom.

RESPONSE: No. It means exactly what it says. Use the plain meaning of words. "Some standing here" means "some standing here".

The phrase describes the present moment in which it was spoken, not some other occasion. THe event was to happen during the lifetime of of some of those present when Jesus made the statement.

Note also especially the companion teaching in the English Revised Version.

Matt 23:10
But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.


Note neither verse happened yet they say basically the same thing.

[peacedove]

polonius wrote:

English Revised Version
Verily I say unto you, There be some of them that stand here, which shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

It amazing how some try to twist the plain meaning of words to attempt to prove that "This generation" was not Jesus generation (ie "some of them that stand here")

Indeed so. You cannot get away with claiming that the 'this generation' issue is not the same as the 'some standing here' issue, as BOTH relate to the 'coming':

"For the Son of Man is going to COME with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Mat 16:27-28)

So in this case the 'some standing here' is in reference to the coming in judgement and in his kingdom.

RESPONSE: No. It means exactly what it says. Use the plain meaning of words. "Some standing here" means "some standing here".

The phrase describes the present moment in which it was spoken, not some other occasion. THe event was to happen during the lifetime of of some of those present when Jesus made the statement.

Note also especially the companion teaching in the English Revised Version.

Matt 23:10
But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.


Note neither verse happened yet they say basically the same thing.

Perhaps you aren't reading what I wrote or thinking it through. I am agreeing with you that the text and the promise was for that time.

Mark 9:1 says that those who were standing there would not die before they looked back to see that the kingdom of God had ALREADY come in power. They would be looking back on it as a past event.

I believe that this promise was kept in tjat generation. Why don't you?

[peacedove]

polonius wrote:


RESPONSE: No. It means exactly what it says. Use the plain meaning of words. "Some standing here" means "some standing here".

The phrase describes the present moment in which it was spoken, not some other occasion. THe event was to happen during the lifetime of of some of those present when Jesus made the statement.

Note also especially the companion teaching in the English Revised Version.

Matt 23:10
But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.


Note neither verse happened yet they say basically the same thing.

Perhaps it would help address your problem by going back to the list of the things that Christ said would happen in that generation to see how many you already agree DID happen in THAT generation in the First Century:

In this case 'this generation' is in reference to 'all these things' which are:
1. The coming (24:3,27,30)

This is the one you seem to think didn't happen. However, the precedent for the coming of the Lord out of heaven, on the clouds, with a trumpet, in flaming fire, destroying his enemies, at the Day of the Lord etc. from the Old Testament indicates that the meaning is the judgement of one nation or empire by means of another. Christ said he would do as the Father had done before (John 5). He was promising the same kind of event as recounted and as explained as the coming of the Lord.

On this basis, therefore, Christ indeed came on the clouds, and destroyed the persecuting power, the unbelieving Jews, as he said he would, by means of the agent of wrath, who then bore the sword, and who then collected taxes, i.e. the Roman imperial army (Rom. 13:2-6) in fulfillment of Deut. 32 (Rom. 12), as I have been explaining.

2. The end of the age (24:3 = the harvest 13:39)

The Jerusalem temple did represent the old Age of Moses and the Law, which ended with its destruction.

3. The destruction of the Jerusalem temple (24:2)

Yup.

4. Wars (24:6)

Yup.

5. Rebellion (24:7)

Yup

6. The new birth (24:8 i.e. the rebirth of Jerusalem, the arrival of the New Jerusalem, which is the resurrection of the dead cf. Is. 26:17-19; 66:7-13; Jer 30:6-7; Hos 13:13-14)

The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven at the destruction of the city according to Revelation.

7. the outbreak of persecution against Christians, and times of distress and famine (24:6-12)

Yup.

8. The completion of the Great Commission (24:14)

According to Paul, yup.

9. The coming of 'the end' and the fulfillment of the 'abomination of desolation' spoken by the prophet Daniel (24:6,14,15 i.e. 'the end' of Dan. 12, the time of the resurrection of the wise and the unwise, and when 'the power of the holy people is completely broken' and the fulfillment of the Abomination of Desolation of Dan. 12 and Dan 9, when the temple is destroyed)

The power of the holy people was completely broken. The city was encircled (cf. Luke 21).

10. The great tribulation (24:21 i.e. the great tribulation of Dan. 12)

Yup

11. The rise of lawlessness (24:12 i.e. the seditious, the man of lawlessness in the temple)

Yup

12. The rise of false prophets and false christs (24:5,11,24 note that false christs are rebel political figures claiming to be leading a war to establish the kingdom of God)

Yup

13. The 'coming' of the Son of Man as the light (not lightening) of the new day, i.e. the new age, rising like the sun from east to west (24:27)

As explained above, yup.

14. The sun and moon darkened, the stars fall (24:29 referring not to physical events, but to the political and imperial events of the fall of the old covenant kingdom of Jerusalem/Judah)

Jerusalem fell, and her kingdom / rulers.

15. The mourning of the tribes of the land (24:30 i.e. the mourning of the tribes of Israel in fulfillment Zech. 12:10-14)

Yup

16. The regathering, via the angels (24:31 i.e. the harvest regathering of Mat. 3:11-12, in which the Pharisees and the Sadducees are uprooted and thrown in the fire 3:7-10 cf. also Mat. 13)

The kingdom of the Chief Priests destroyed, uprooted and thrown in the fire.

So, which of the above would you like to quibble over?

[Tell the Truth]

[Replying to post 1 by Overcomer]

Overcomer you are really on to something!

Do you know the definition of the Dispensation. If so then apply it to gain the understanding of who that generation is.
A Major chapter is about to close. There is a major event that is going to take place in the near future. Here is a clue. (IMMINENT) Some doubt it.

Some even doubt that the Father is about to turn his attention back to Israel.

The Jews rejected the Christ and was put on the side lines. That's why that 1948 year you spoke of is so important. It allures to him coming back for his FIRST LOVE. those who will be here for that will witness events like in the day of Egypt. Water turning into blood No rain. Remember we are talking about the GREAT TRIBULATION.

So PAY ATTENTION. A major event will close the grace dispensation that we are living right now ( CHOOSE CHRIST NOW ) WHEN THIS DISPENSATION CLOSE That will open up the generation that will not pass away They will witness the Temple being rebuilt and witness the Antichrist walk right into it and claim he is God. The Jews will flee but so many of them will die by the Islam sword. The Antichrist will be the one to issue and then break the covenant

So in short. The key to knowing that generation is to understand that they will witness Israel being encamped. Pay close attention for if you do you will notice they are already surrounded by Islam.

Super day!!

[Revelations won]

Why make a beautiful simple statement of Christ into something mysterious?

Did not Christ earlier give strong indication that "John the beloved", might be granted the gift of "translation" so that he might tarry in mortality till the last dispensation?

Why should we fail to recognize that the apostle John was granted the same "translated " state wherein he, like Elijah, would not taste of death?

[peacedove]

Why make a beautiful simple statement of Christ into something mysterious?

Did not Christ earlier give strong indication that "John the beloved", might be granted the gift of "translation" so that he might tarry in mortality till the last dispensation?

Why should we fail to recognize that the apostle John was granted the same "translated " state wherein he, like Elijah, would not taste of death?

It appears you are referring to John 21:20-24 where the author discusses an incident where the author's fate is contrasted with Peter's. Peter was told he would be led to a death with his hands outstretched. The author was the one who reclined with the Lord, and whom the Lord loved. The recliner was Lazarus (John 12:2), whom the Lord loved (11:3,5,36). This recliner, whom the Lord loved, was with him when he disclosed who would betray him (13:23). This recliner, the author of the book, now has the Lord's attention turned to him as to his fate, compared to Peter's. As this disciple has already died, perhaps there was some wonder whether he would not die again, perhaps based on a misunderstanding of some of the sayings (John 11:26; Luke 20:34-36). The author clarifies the position was not that the author would never die, but that he may live until the Lord returned. This supports the idea that the Lord was to come in that generation, and that even after he came, people would continue to be born and die, and that the author would die rather than be translated to heaven.

The author has the Lord teach that the last day resurrection had already arrived (5:25). When Martha is told her brother will live again, she replies, yes, at the last day (11:23-24). The Lord shifts the goal-posts: I am the resurrection (11:25). Whoever believes in the Lord, though he dies, he will live again, and whoever lives and believes in him will not die unto the age (11:26). Martha adjusts her response accordingly: The Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world. (11:27). The Lord then proves his claim by raising Lazarus from the dead.

Yes, Lazarus died again. Death in the new heaven and new earth is as ongoing as bearing children (Is. 65:17-23).

Accordingly, the Lord came in that generation in judgement, and Lazarus died, and we still are born, marry, bear children, and die.

[Checkpoint]

Why make a beautiful simple statement of Christ into something mysterious?

Did not Christ earlier give strong indication that "John the beloved", might be granted the gift of "translation" so that he might tarry in mortality till the last dispensation?

Why should we fail to recognize that the apostle John was granted the same "translated " state wherein he, like Elijah, would not taste of death?

Because it is a rumor and both Jesus and John have something important to say about what to do with it.

John 21:

18 Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.

19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, Follow me!

20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, Lord, who is going to betray you?)
21 When Peter saw him, he asked, Lord, what about him?

22 Jesus answered, If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.

23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?

24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.