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"The Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what I say it means."
Many discussions in this Forum come down to or involve semantics – arguing about what the Bible ‘really says or means’
If the Bible is ‘The word of God’ as often claimed, WHY doesn’t it speak for itself – clearly, without need for argument about what it says or means?
If the Bible is NOT ‘The word of God’, but is the word of ancient writers speaking ‘for God’ and giving their opinions or stories about God and events, WHY is the Bible regarded as ‘sacred’ (or inerrant or infallible or whatever is claimed)?
"The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."
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Zzyzx
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"The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."
Post #1.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Sojournerofthearth
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Re: "The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."
Post #31[Replying to post 30 by Tcg]
I see... well, I thought the topic, the main topic, was that the BIBLE doesn't mean what it says, in relation to
So.... when you said
At any rate, what would you accept as proof?
Aldous Huxley stated in regard to religion that, "‘I had motive for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves. … For myself, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political.’" In other words, his motive was not to have to conform to any rules and regulations he deemed unnecessary. He would think today's world was just about perfect. The bottom line is that if I could prove it to you, you'd have to change your life... and most folks don't want to do that... certainly that was Mr. Huxley's motivation.
Personally, I have no motive to try and convince you of the Reality of God. I can't take you where I've been or show you what I've seen. I have no compulsion to "save your soul from hell." It's too much like trying to prove green to the colorblind.
I see... well, I thought the topic, the main topic, was that the BIBLE doesn't mean what it says, in relation to
And JW's claim that the reason why could be related to the belief some have that one needs to have their understanding opened to see what it is saying...If the Bible is ‘The word of God’ as often claimed, WHY doesn’t it speak for itself – clearly, without need for argument about what it says or means?
So.... when you said
I wondered if you meant there was no proof in the Bible... since that was the Topic, but then, upon reading further, I was no longer certain of the context of your statement. I find context to be of great import.there is no verifiable evidence to back up this invented "spiritual impairment
At any rate, what would you accept as proof?
Aldous Huxley stated in regard to religion that, "‘I had motive for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves. … For myself, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political.’" In other words, his motive was not to have to conform to any rules and regulations he deemed unnecessary. He would think today's world was just about perfect. The bottom line is that if I could prove it to you, you'd have to change your life... and most folks don't want to do that... certainly that was Mr. Huxley's motivation.
Personally, I have no motive to try and convince you of the Reality of God. I can't take you where I've been or show you what I've seen. I have no compulsion to "save your soul from hell." It's too much like trying to prove green to the colorblind.
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Tcg
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Re: "The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."
Post #32If you review my statements, you'll see that I never asked for proof. I sated that the missing ingredient needed to support the Bible's claim is verifiable evidence.
So if we correct your question to ask, "At any rate, what would you accept as verifiable evidence?"
My answer would be, "What verifiable evidence have you to present?"
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Sojournerofthearth
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Tcg
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Re: "The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."
Post #34You've not even attempted to do so. We'll cross that bridge if you ever build it.
….you'd have to change your life...
What do you know of my life and what specifically do you presume I'd need to change?
...certainly that was Mr. Huxley's motivation.
Given that Mr. Huxley died in 1963, I assume you realize that he and I are very different people.
Tcg
Last edited by Tcg on Wed May 22, 2019 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Tcg
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Re: "The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."
Post #35That remains to be seen. Until you present the verifiable evidence you assume I'd not accept, neither you nor I know how I'd react.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Sojournerofthearth
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Re: "The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."
Post #36[Replying to post 34 by Tcg]
No judgement here. I'm not pointing fingers. I don't care what you do or don't do. I don't presume to know anything about you except that I assume you're human, flesh and blood does not inherit the Kingdom of God. The carnal mind is at odds with God... For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is at odds with God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:6-8)
so there's that...
Absolutely everything... the way you think.,,, the way you act... the things you value... every thing you think and every thing you do.What do you know of my life and what specifically do you presume I'd need to change?
No judgement here. I'm not pointing fingers. I don't care what you do or don't do. I don't presume to know anything about you except that I assume you're human, flesh and blood does not inherit the Kingdom of God. The carnal mind is at odds with God... For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is at odds with God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:6-8)
so there's that...
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Tcg
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Re: "The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."
Post #37Sojournerofthearth wrote: [Replying to post 34 by Tcg]
Absolutely everything...What do you know of my life and what specifically do you presume I'd need to change?
Okay. Let's give you a chance to prove this claim.
What is my middle name?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Zzyzx
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Re: "The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."
Post #38.
How, exactly, do you know things would have to change unless you know what they are?
Some choose to believe stories about living on in a hypothetical, unverified ‘afterlife’. That is belief, not established factual information.
Notice that the Bible is not considered any more authoritative than any other book in C&A debates.
Many people, including Paul/Saul, claim to know about God. However, they are unable to show verifiable evidence that their claims of knowledge are true and accurate. “Take my word for it (or his or this book)� may be good enough in church or among fellow believers, but does not constitute evidence in debate (and probably isn’t a very wise practice in real life).
I suspect that you are NOT saying you know ‘absolutely everything’ about Tcg’s life, but that you ARE saying that you KNOW Tcg would have to change ‘absolutely everything’.Sojournerofthearth wrote:Absolutely everything... the way you think.,,, the way you act... the things you value... every thing you think and every thing you do.Tcg wrote: What do you know of my life and what specifically do you presume I'd need to change?
How, exactly, do you know things would have to change unless you know what they are?
Yet, you profess to know that Tcg has to change ‘absolutely everything’?Sojournerofthearth wrote: No judgement here. I'm not pointing fingers. I don't care what you do or don't do. I don't presume to know anything about you except that I assume you're human,
This assumes there is a ‘kingdom of God’ to be ‘inherited’. That has not been shown to be anything more than the product of human imagination.Sojournerofthearth wrote: flesh and blood does not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Kindly provide verifiable evidence (more substantial than unverifiable tales, testimonials, opinions)Sojournerofthearth wrote: The carnal mind is at odds with God...
Death occurs to all regardless of their spirituality.Sojournerofthearth wrote: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Some choose to believe stories about living on in a hypothetical, unverified ‘afterlife’. That is belief, not established factual information.
So said Paul/Saul – who also said other strange things. So what?Sojournerofthearth wrote: Because the carnal mind is at odds with God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:6-8)
Notice that the Bible is not considered any more authoritative than any other book in C&A debates.
Many people, including Paul/Saul, claim to know about God. However, they are unable to show verifiable evidence that their claims of knowledge are true and accurate. “Take my word for it (or his or this book)� may be good enough in church or among fellow believers, but does not constitute evidence in debate (and probably isn’t a very wise practice in real life).
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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2ndRateMind
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Re: "The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."
Post #39Do you want an easy life? To be told what to think, and say, and do? If so, Christianity is not the appropriate religion for you. If you want rules, refer to your national constitution. If you want an intellectual challenge, try the philosophy of religion. Law demands; religion provokes. And they will demand and provoke different things of different people as they make their pilgrimage through life. Whatever, they are not the same thing, and serve different purposes.Zzyzx wrote: .
"The Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what I say it means."
Many discussions in this Forum come down to or involve semantics – arguing about what the Bible ‘really says or means’
If the Bible is ‘The word of God’ as often claimed, WHY doesn’t it speak for itself – clearly, without need for argument about what it says or means?
If the Bible is NOT ‘The word of God’, but is the word of ancient writers speaking ‘for God’ and giving their opinions or stories about God and events, WHY is the Bible regarded as ‘sacred’ (or inerrant or infallible or whatever is claimed)?
Best wishes, 2RM.
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Not all who wander are lost
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2ndRateMind
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Re: "The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."
Post #40Not at all sure, as a (not very good) Christian, this is entirely the case. Some of my most happy moments have been spent being entirely carnally minded. And I do not think God would begrudge them of me. I guess it's just a case of properly balancing the physical and the spiritual. Neither should preclude the other, overall.Sojournerofthearth wrote: = I don't presume to know anything about you except that I assume you're human, flesh and blood does not inherit the Kingdom of God. The carnal mind is at odds with God... For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is at odds with God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:6-8)
so there's that...
Best wishes, 2RM.
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost
Not all who wander are lost
