The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from the following exchange between myself and Pinseeker:

PinSeeker wrote:

The millennium of Revelation 20 is not a future event. It was when Jeremiah prophesied, obviously, but is not anymore. Or, to be more exacting, it's no longer merely a future event.

Checkpoint asked:

Then why do so many believers think of it as yet future only?

Pinseeker explained:

For at least two reasons, I think:

1. A basic misunderstanding of Revelation as a whole, and the Millennium of chapter 20 included.

2. Many believers (primarily western believers) have bought into the heresy of the "rapture," which came about in the early 19th century. It's not that they are heretics, it's just that that's all they've ever been exposed to.

That's one take from one school of thought.

Your take may be similar or be completely different.

Please share it here, and tell us why you hold that position.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

What Revelation 20 is, Part 1

To grasp what it is, we firstly need to recognise what Revelation as a whole's genre is, and how Chapter 20 fits into its genre.

Its genre is what is known as apocalyptic, which is:

From HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 602 apokálypsis – properly, uncovering (unveiling). See 601 (apokalypt�).

602 /apokálypsis ("revelation, unveiling") is principally used of the revelation of Jesus Christ (the Word), especially a particular (spiritual) manifestation of Christ (His will) previously unknown to the extent (because "veiled, covered")

The Book of Revelation begins accordingly:

Revelation 1:

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Thus what John was shown, in visions, he testifies to; that is, to what he saw(and/or to what he heard).

God tells us elsewhere that what He reveals this way is not plain.

Numbers 12:

6 He said, “Listen to My words:

“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.

7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.

8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles

Revelation is an exciting spiritual book, with visions that are in need of interpretation because they are not expressed in plain language but in the language of metaphor.

It is a fine line to determine what is literal and what is not, and from that to explain your interpretation.

Let's always aim to do so in the language of love.

"Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up".

[Checkpoint]

Grace and peace.

Dude. Same to you but more of it!

The Lord be with you, brother.

Thanks; He is, always.

In the thick of things, I see, Pinseeker.

Hope you're not getting too giddy going round the same old mulberry bush!

All the best, bro.

[PinSeeker]

Then we will not be physical.

Oh, but we will.

Then we will die again in 120 years or less:

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

<chuckles>

[myth-one.com]

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

<chuckles>

You laugh at the words of God?

[PinSeeker]

Revelation is an exciting spiritual book, with visions that are in need of interpretation because they are not expressed in plain language but in the language of metaphor.

It is a fine line to determine what is literal and what is not, and from that to explain your interpretation.

Let's always aim to do so in the language of love.

"Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up".

I'll add briefly to this, Checkpoint, if I may. Four things:

1. Revelation is not hard to understand. It may seem so on the surface, but it's really not. John promises (really, God promises) that all who read and hear the words of his prophecy (and heed it) will be blessed (Revelation 1:3). If it seems hard, or cryptic, you can pretty much bet it's user error...

2. Following from number 1 above, yes, Revelation is apocalyptic literature, but that doesn't mean it's hard to understand. It should be read as a picture book, not as a puzzle book. In other words, we shouldn't try to make one-to-one historical correlations/matches with this person to that person, or this thing to that thing. For the most part, the relationships of specific things in Revelation are one-to-many (rather than than one-to-one). Metaphorically speaking (see what I did there?), this ONE PIECE doesn't just go RIGHT HERE in the puzzle, but rather right here, and right there, and down there, and over here, and right there, and up there, and over there, and... You get what I mean.

3. Following number 2 above, especially the picture book and one-to-many aspects, Revelation is a recapitulation of history -- past, present, and future... several times over -- of the history of the world leading up to Christ's return (which of course hasn't happened yet). Each time history is recapitulated, it is more compressed and focuses more and more on Christ's return. Revelation 20 (the whole of the chapter) is actually the last of these recapitulations (the previous ones were more than just one chapter).

4. Following number 3 above (you knew that was coming, right?), the basic theme of Revelation is summed up in just two words: JESUS WINS.

Read John's Revelation as a ten-year-old child looking at a picture book. You may find that you see things more clearly than you ever thought possible.

Grace and peace to you all.

[PinSeeker]

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

<chuckles>

You laugh at the words of God?

By no means. Just at your, um... tenaciousness.

[myth-one.com]

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

<chuckles>

You laugh at the words of God?

By no means. Just at your, um... tenaciousness.

Big word, "tenaciousness."

You claim that all mankind will live forever as spirits within physical bodies.

Here are some Bible verses as inspired by God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Is God "tenacious" also, or simply wrong?

[PinSeeker]

Is God "tenacious" also, or simply wrong?

God is not in question, myth-one.

The dichotomy is the natural (not of the Holy Spirit), and the spiritual (of the Holy Spirit), myth-one. Physicality or lack thereof is not in view.

You just GOTTA have the last word, don't ya?

[tam]

Peace to you!

Before I respond to your post to me, Pinseeker, I am just going to also copy out what you said to myth-one:

LOL! Yes, Satan is bound, in that He can no longer "deceive the nations," which means to stop the spread of the Gospel. He cannot stop folks from becoming Christians. In this way he is bound.

I am sorry, but this is inaccurate.

In your opinion.

You place "deceive the nations" in brackets, and then assign it a meaning other than what is stated.

This is your opinion, too. I respect it, but it is what it is.

This is not my opinion, Pinseeker. This is what you did.

Deceive does not mean "stop".

But these words mean what they say...

Absolutely, they do.

...the Adversary is absolutely deceiving the nations even today.

He's trying to, but can't, as it relates to the Gospel.

He can.


"Christendom" is a house DIVIDED. So "Christendom" cannot be from Christ because a) Christ said that a house divided will fall; and b) Christ is not divided. Truth is not divided. But "Christendom" is divided, conflicted, contradictory; as are its teachings.



How many lies out there about Christ and God have come from Christendom (or from other religions)? And who is the father of lies other than the Adversary (the one called Satan)?

He's not able to stop the spread of the Gospel.

But he is able to deceive the nations, and he has done so with the river that he has spews from his mouth (lies, deceit) in an attempt to overtake the woman.


Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Sure, he can deceive folks as far as acting in ways that become followers of Christ and glorifying God, and that's what he does, with is fiery darts.

I think you need to rephrase this sentence, I am not sure what you mean.

Regardless, you have said it here yourself: Satan can indeed deceive folks.

But Satan is bound and sealed in the abyss at the start of the thousand years, so that he can no longer "deceive folks". Therefore, the thousand years cannot have yet begun, and the first resurrection cannot have yet occurred.


I think some may be confusing the token (the deposit of holy spirit) that guarantees the things to come... with the actual resurrection.

Mine is that the New Testament affirms that Jesus's first coming has already bound Satan. Actually, Jesus Himself does this in Matthew 12 when He rebukes the Pharisees in verses 22-29. Jesus was able to expel demons because He had bound Satan, the "strong man."

He is able to expel demons because He has the authority to do so. Satan does not have to be bound in order for Christ to have this authority.

Therefore, the thousand years have not yet begun.

And I say they have.

Revelation is not a matter of our opinions, or our 'say so'.



It is a revelation. It must be revealed.


In the same way that the scriptures must be opened, and Christ is the one who opens the scriptures... Revelation must be revealed, and Christ is the one who does the revealing.


One does not receive understanding of revelation from the NT, or from a religion, or from one's own reasoning. One receives understanding of revelation from Christ.



Thank you for your wish of peace, and peace again to you and your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

Is God "tenacious" also, or simply wrong?

God is not in question, myth-one.

The dichotomy is the natural (not of the Holy Spirit), and the spiritual (of the Holy Spirit), myth-one. Physicality or lack thereof is not in view.

You just GOTTA have the last word, don't ya?

Yes, the natural and spiritual form a dichotomy.

They are opposites.

Ask yourself why you must force them together.

There is no reason for any spirit to have a physical body.

You are stuck with this impossibility as you believe all mankind is created with an "immortal soul."

Since we already have the spiritual body, you are left with the resurrections having to be another physical body!

Only the nonbelievers are resurrected with physical bodies.

Believers are resurrected with spiritual bodies at the Second Coming:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

If they were resurrected with physical bodies, they would not survive the Millennium.

1000 -120 = 880 years short