The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from the following exchange between myself and Pinseeker:

PinSeeker wrote:

The millennium of Revelation 20 is not a future event. It was when Jeremiah prophesied, obviously, but is not anymore. Or, to be more exacting, it's no longer merely a future event.

Checkpoint asked:

Then why do so many believers think of it as yet future only?

Pinseeker explained:

For at least two reasons, I think:

1. A basic misunderstanding of Revelation as a whole, and the Millennium of chapter 20 included.

2. Many believers (primarily western believers) have bought into the heresy of the "rapture," which came about in the early 19th century. It's not that they are heretics, it's just that that's all they've ever been exposed to.

That's one take from one school of thought.

Your take may be similar or be completely different.

Please share it here, and tell us why you hold that position.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 136 by PinSeeker]

Now, this is how I interpret it, but it is surely not my "private interpretation"; rather, it is the interpretation of the overwhelmingly vast majority of conservative, Bible-believing Christians.

Yes but, as you may know, the vast majority are not necessarily right, and are not what or who we are to follow.

We who would be teachers of others are not to be crowd pleasers or crowd followers; we are under obligation to our God.

James 3:

1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

2 We all stumble in many ways.

We are fellow-travellers on a journey, who walk by faith, not by sight.

Let us aim to get up again when we do stumble, and ask the Lord to keep us from further stumbling.

Grace and peace to you and to all.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 149 by myth-one.com]

Didn't you listen to anything I posted? What I said about Jesus being a perfect, sinless man who was not appointed to die, is what I stand by.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 149 by myth-one.com]

Didn't you listen to anything I posted? What I said about Jesus being a perfect, sinless man who was not appointed to die, is what I stand by.

That's fine that you stand by that statement.

My posting 149 simply proved that the scriptures do not support that statement:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Not only was Jesus appointed to die as all men are, the Word was made the man Jesus Christ specifically for the purpose of dying! Death was one "job requirement" of His mission on the earth!

He had to live a sinless human life.

If He was still alive as a human, then He has not completed that part of His mission.

It cannot be said that He lived a sinless human life if He hasn't died.

It could only be said that He has lived a sinless life thus far into His life.

That is, His human life would not be ended.

By living a human sinless life, He proved that it was possible.

Jesus first death didn't save us from our first death.

He saved us from the everlasting possible second death.

The first death is appointed, the second death is optional.

Jesus does not have to suffer the second death because He died sinless.

All other humans face their second permanent death because we chose to sin.

[LuciusWrong]

Welcome, LuciusWrong, to this debating site and this sub-forum.

I asked for your take and you explained your hypothesis!

And a good one it is at that.

You see, this life is basically for the test you mention.

Today God is proving how good His ideas are and how bad Satan's ideas are.

Today is the day of salvation, the one in which we choose life and love over death and destruction.

That is why your thesis fits so well with the Bible.

With God a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.

Grace and peace to you.

Thanks. Yes, but there is one question remaining. This question gets at a deeply held presupposition, one that sits many layers beneath accepted theologies...does God = truth; does truth come from God; Is God truth? Or does God know truth?

Using the standard of a coherent story as a method of proof, I believe it is necessary for God to know truth, a truth outside of himself. I know, this is complete heresy to the conservative mind, but I think this is absolutely necessary to resolve the story.

God claims he is the king of heaven. And he bases his claim to the throne on his attributes, like perfect love, wisdom, justice, etc. But this creates a problem, because if God is the one who is the standard, the one who decides what "good" is, how can we judge if he is actually good? What if he is in reality power hungry, and what if he is arbitrarily creating rules designed to strengthen his position of power? Just because he says his way is the best, and just because he is powerful, this doesn't prove that he is deserving of the throne.

So in essence, the lie is that the real "truth" is that God is a tyrant, that God isn't what he claims to be.

I believe the lie presented to Adam and Eve is that everyone can decide the truth for themselves; to decide the truth is to be God, and since everyone can decide truth on their own, everyone can be God.

To defend against this accusation, God created this world to publicly prove, to prove to all the heavenly beings, that truth exists apart from himself. So God is saying that he deserves the throne, not because he is the most powerful, and not because he can invent the best set of rules. No. He says he deserves the throne because he understands something that nobody else understands. And this knowledge makes him the only one who can bring heaven together and keep it together....which is his larger intent. You see, it really isn't about us.

The idea that God alone understands ethics might seem silly at first glance. Ethics are fairly intuitive to us, because we live in a deterministic world. But I see indications that heaven is not deterministic, or atleast it is not deterministic in the way our reality is. The fact that life and death are dependent on our every action, moment by moment, is something that spirtual beings wouldn't understand, assuming they are eternal in the way we believe they are.

Well, it seems I've toppled pretty much everything that his holy, acccording to tradition, so I'll call it a day.

[PinSeeker]

@myth-one:

Jesus executes the Judgement at His return, which is final -- a once and for all event. Subsequently, though, those whom Jesus "never knew" enter into their eternal state under God's judgment. Which means, myth-one, not that God judges them again (and again and again and again), but rather the absolute removal of His grace and blessing. Being judged, which is a one-time event, and being in a state of judgment (under God's judgment), which is ongoing from the point a final judgment is made, are two different things. This is what Scripture very clearly teaches. It does not teach annihilationism.

[PinSeeker]

...to decide the truth is to be God, and since everyone can decide truth on their own, everyone can be God.

I think that makes you either a Hindu or a Buudhist. Or a... well, that wouldn't be nice.

Well, it seems I've toppled pretty much everything that his holy, acccording to tradition, so I'll call it a day.

Nahhhhhhhhhhhh, nobody can do that.

[PinSeeker]

Confusing it can so easily be or become.

If one is predisposed to making it that way, sure.

Judgment is the decision being made by the Judge. It is a one time experience for the individual...

Right.

... It is a one time experience for the individual, and thus it is temporal.

The term 'temporal,' Checkpoint, means of or related to worldly, linear time. We are temporal beings... while we are on this earth, anyway... and God is eternal, or ouside of worldly, linear time. But we will all eventually be eternal beings; the only question is how we will spend that eternity -- either in God's eternal blessing and rest or under His judgment and eternally devoid of that blessing and grace. This is what will be finally determined in the Judgment.

Punishment is the specific decision made regarding the individual so judged. As such, it is one-time and temporal.

Well, once and for all, with eternal implications.

The specific Judgment decision, whether it be life or punishment, is eternal and lasts forever.

Yes sir.

Kind of funny how myth-one "liked" your post. You pretty much refuted everything he's said this entire thread. Either he's confused or he's coming around, I guess...

Grace and peace to you, Pinseeker and myth-one.

And to both of you also.

[myth-one.com]

@myth-one:

Jesus executes the Judgement at His return, which is final -- a once and for all event. Subsequently, though, those whom Jesus "never knew" enter into their eternal state under God's judgment. Which means, myth-one, not that God judges them again (and again and again and again), but rather the absolute removal of His grace and blessing. Being judged, which is a one-time event, and being in a state of judgment (under God's judgment), which is ongoing from the point a final judgment is made, are two different things. This is what Scripture very clearly teaches. It does not teach annihilationism.

That's clear as mud.

PinSeeker's interpretation:

Jesus executes a once and for all final judgement at His return.

Judgement's over.

Oops. wait a minute. Those that Jesus never knew enter into a state of eternal judgment under God's judgment.

Were these overlooked or unable to attend Jesus' judgement?

I notice that one is a judgement, while the other is a judgment. Is that significant?

Are they similar events?

Oops. Nevermind, God's judgement is not a judgment at all, but simply the absolute removal of His grace and blessing.

Is that a big deal?

This is what Scripture very clearly teaches.

Then you need to quote those scriptures as your explanation is confusing.

Start with it's a final one time judgement, but then judgment begins for those Jesus never knew.

Isn't two judgments double jeopardy?

[myth-one.com]

@myth-one:

Jesus executes the Judgement at His return, which is final -- a once and for all event. Subsequently, though, those whom Jesus "never knew" enter into their eternal state under God's judgment. Which means, myth-one, not that God judges them again (and again and again and again), but rather the absolute removal of His grace and blessing. Being judged, which is a one-time event, and being in a state of judgment (under God's judgment), which is ongoing from the point a final judgment is made, are two different things. This is what Scripture very clearly teaches. It does not teach annihilationism.

Perhaps we should take one small step at a time.

Jesus executes the Judgement at His return . . .

That is incorrect.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

These verses state that the resurrection which we await now is the resurrection of they that are Christ's.

And they that are Christ's will be resurrected at the Second Coming.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

This verse states that none of those resurrected at the second coming will suffer the second death.

And those resurrected will become priests of God and Christ and will spend the 1000 year Millennium with Christ.

They will never face judgment as there is no cause to judge them.

Here is how Revelation puts it:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:4-5)

Those resurrected in the first resurrection are given the power to judge.

They live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

And the rest of the dead (nonbelievers) are resurrected after the millennium is finished.

So Jesus does not execute the Judgment at His return. The judgment begins after the millennium, which is a thousand years after His return!

========================================================================

Do you disagree with that and why?

[LuciusWrong]

...to decide the truth is to be God, and since everyone can decide truth on their own, everyone can be God.

I think that makes you either a Hindu or a Buudhist. Or a... well, that wouldn't be nice.

Well, it seems I've toppled pretty much everything that his holy, acccording to tradition, so I'll call it a day.

Nahhhhhhhhhhhh, nobody can do that.

First, I don't have anything against the Buddhist. I think Christians could benefit from their understanding of ethics.

And certainly you did notice...that the bit you quoted from my previous post...is explaining the Devil's, well, Satan's lie, right? I'm expounding on the implications of that lie. It is what they believe.