Matthew 16:28-29:

[Checkpoint]

This opening post comes from an exchange between Elijah John and me, Checkpoint.

The issue raised was the validity or otherwise of combining verses 28 and 29 of Matthew 16 as being a text in its proper context, or not.

Here now, without further ado, is the exchange.


Elijah John wrote

No interpretation, let's let the text speak for itself. What does this mean, in your opinion?

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Checkpoint wrote

Here we go again, E.J.

Who chose what you now quote as being "the text"?

It is not a text but rather a portion of two texts joined together to make what is an artificial text.

It is the end of one text and the beginning of another text.

Both are therefore out of their own context.

"A text taken out of its context becomes a pretext for a prooftext".

Elijah John wrote

In my Bible verses 27 and 28 are in the same paragraph. Same paragraph, same subject. The way I read it Jesus was speaking of his 2nd coming in verse 27. How do you read it?

And in 28 he was referring to his contemporary listener, "some standing here".

Jesus still has not returned in judgement with his Father's angels. Are his contemporaries still alive?

Having said this, I see what you mean. I did a little research and yes, some versions have v 27 +28 in different paragraphs. Others, including the ASV, RSV, NRSV, NJB, have the two verses in the same paragraph.

But that would indeed make a world of difference. Was Jesus shifting topics here? Almost like stream of consciousness? Or not.

[Imprecise Interrupt]

The Codex Sinaiticus dates to the 4th century, As can be seen here, the 4th century scribes thought that verses 24-28 were all one paragraph. In the right-hand panel, scroll around and you will see that verse 23 completes a paragraph (trailing blank space) and verse 24 begins a paragraph (reverse indent on first line). Verse 28 does not start a new paragraph. It ends a paragraph. 17:1 begins a new paragraph.

It is easier to see all this if you click off the image button above the right pane, making the right panel larger. With the image button clicked on, you can see in the left panel that these paragraph indicators exist in the original manuscript.

The 4th century scribes thought that verse 28 was part of the same thought as verses 24-27. Were they wrong?

[Checkpoint]

The Codex Sinaiticus dates to the 4th century, As can be seen here, the 4th century scribes thought that verses 24-28 were all one paragraph. In the right-hand panel, scroll around and you will see that verse 23 completes a paragraph (trailing blank space) and verse 24 begins a paragraph (reverse indent on first line). Verse 28 does not start a new paragraph. It ends a paragraph. 17:1 begins a new paragraph.

It is easier to see all this if you click off the image button above the right pane, making the right panel larger. With the image button clicked on, you can see in the left panel that these paragraph indicators exist in the original manuscript.

The 4th century scribes thought that verse 28 was part of the same thought as verses 24-27. Were they wrong?

Anyone can be wrong and anyone can be right.

What those scribes thought is of interest, but each of us must make our own judgment based on the wider context.

[myth-one.com]

Regarding Matthew 16:27-28:

Jesus spoke the following words to His disciples:

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Here are comparable verses written by Paul to other believers:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Both sets of verses are discussing what will happen to believers who are alive at the Second Coming!

Their will be two groups of believers at the time of the Second Coming -- those that are dead and those that are alive.

Those that are dead will be resurrected or "born again" as everlasting spiritual bodied beings into the Kingdom of God.

====================================================================

Regarding Christians who are alive at the Second Coming, Jesus writes:

"There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

This is almost identical to what Paul writes regarding Christians living at the time of the Second Coming:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."

Both statements have the same meaning!

That meaning is that there will be Christians living on the earth (or standing here on the earth) at the time of the Second Coming.

These living believers will be changed without tasting of death or sleep (a euphemism for death):

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

[Checkpoint]

Regarding Matthew 16:27-28:

Jesus spoke the following words to His disciples:

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Here are comparable verses written by Paul to other believers:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Both sets of verses are discussing what will happen to believers who are alive at the Second Coming!

Their will be two groups of believers at the time of the Second Coming -- those that are dead and those that are alive.

Those that are dead will be resurrected or "born again" as everlasting spiritual bodied beings into the Kingdom of God.

====================================================================

Regarding Christians who are alive at the Second Coming, Jesus writes:

"There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

This is almost identical to what Paul writes regarding Christians living at the time of the Second Coming:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."

Both statements have the same meaning!

That meaning is that there will be Christians living on the earth (or standing here on the earth) at the time of the Second Coming.

These living believers will be changed without tasting of death or sleep (a euphemism for death):

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

You appear to have accepted without question that verses 27 and 28 form a valid text.

The phrase "some standing here" refers to those alive then, not to those who are alive at his return, which is yet future, isn;t it?

[Imprecise Interrupt]

The Codex Sinaiticus dates to the 4th century, As can be seen here, the 4th century scribes thought that verses 24-28 were all one paragraph. In the right-hand panel, scroll around and you will see that verse 23 completes a paragraph (trailing blank space) and verse 24 begins a paragraph (reverse indent on first line). Verse 28 does not start a new paragraph. It ends a paragraph. 17:1 begins a new paragraph.

It is easier to see all this if you click off the image button above the right pane, making the right panel larger. With the image button clicked on, you can see in the left panel that these paragraph indicators exist in the original manuscript.

The 4th century scribes thought that verse 28 was part of the same thought as verses 24-27. Were they wrong?

Anyone can be wrong and anyone can be right.

What those scribes thought is of interest, but each of us must make our own judgment based on the wider context.

Here is some wider context:

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place

Here are all the other uses Matthew makes use of the phrase ‘this generation’.

Mt 11:6 “But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,

Mt 12:41-42 The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

Mt 23:36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

If ‘this generation’ in Mat 24:34 in the Oliver Discourse is not the generation alive when Jesus spoke, despite that being its meaning in all the other uses of the phrase in Matthew, then we are left with the rather odd statement “the generation that is alive when Jesus returns will not all be dead yet�. And this requires Jesus to say ‘Truly, I say to you�?

[myth-one.com]

You appear to have accepted without question that verses 27 and 28 form a valid text.

Yes. Why would I question that in light of other similar verses which also refer to the future Second Coming?

The phrase "some standing here" refers to those alive then, not to those who are alive at his return, which is yet future, isn;t it?

No it does not refer to those alive then -- that's ridiculous.

The same ridiculous argument could be used against Paul's writings:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Are some of those who Paul is writing to going to live until the Second Coming also?

All of the following verses refer to the time of the Second Coming:

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Every dead Christian will be resurrected to everlasting life at the Second Coming.

Every Christian alive at the Second Coming will be changed with a taste of death, but no sleep or rest involved.

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51-52)

It will be immediate.

Mystery solved!

[onewithhim]

This opening post comes from an exchange between Elijah John and me, Checkpoint.

The issue raised was the validity or otherwise of combining verses 28 and 29 of Matthew 16 as being a text in its proper context, or not.

Here now, without further ado, is the exchange.


Elijah John wrote

No interpretation, let's let the text speak for itself. What does this mean, in your opinion?

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Checkpoint wrote

Here we go again, E.J.

Who chose what you now quote as being "the text"?

It is not a text but rather a portion of two texts joined together to make what is an artificial text.

It is the end of one text and the beginning of another text.

Both are therefore out of their own context.

"A text taken out of its context becomes a pretext for a prooftext".

Elijah John wrote

In my Bible verses 27 and 28 are in the same paragraph. Same paragraph, same subject. The way I read it Jesus was speaking of his 2nd coming in verse 27. How do you read it?

And in 28 he was referring to his contemporary listener, "some standing here".

Jesus still has not returned in judgement with his Father's angels. Are his contemporaries still alive?

Having said this, I see what you mean. I did a little research and yes, some versions have v 27 +28 in different paragraphs. Others, including the ASV, RSV, NRSV, NJB, have the two verses in the same paragraph.

But that would indeed make a world of difference. Was Jesus shifting topics here? Almost like stream of consciousness? Or not.

Didn't we discuss this weeks ago? I know it has been the subject of posts almost ad nauseum. It has been pointed out that Jesus said to those standing there with him that they would see him "coming in his Kingdom." (Matthew 16:28) Then immediately the text goes on to say (Matt.17:2) that Jesus was transfigured before them, and his face glowed, etc. This has to be included in the discussion because to ignore it would be taking verses 24-28 out of context.

This was the disciples seeing him coming in his Kingdom. This is how he would come back after receiving the Kingdom rulership and coming back to rule the earth. He would be a glorified, mighty spirit person (in the form of his Father once again), as Paul describes at I Timothy 6:16:

"...Who dwells in unapproachable light."

Then, when they came down from the mountain, Jesus said, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead." (Matt.17:9)


They, in effect, saw him "coming in his Kingdom."

[Checkpoint]

The Codex Sinaiticus dates to the 4th century, As can be seen here, the 4th century scribes thought that verses 24-28 were all one paragraph. In the right-hand panel, scroll around and you will see that verse 23 completes a paragraph (trailing blank space) and verse 24 begins a paragraph (reverse indent on first line). Verse 28 does not start a new paragraph. It ends a paragraph. 17:1 begins a new paragraph.

It is easier to see all this if you click off the image button above the right pane, making the right panel larger. With the image button clicked on, you can see in the left panel that these paragraph indicators exist in the original manuscript.

The 4th century scribes thought that verse 28 was part of the same thought as verses 24-27. Were they wrong?

Anyone can be wrong and anyone can be right.

What those scribes thought is of interest, but each of us must make our own judgment based on the wider context.

Here is some wider context:

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place

Here are all the other uses Matthew makes use of the phrase ‘this generation’.

Mt 11:6 “But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,

Mt 12:41-42 The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

Mt 23:36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

If ‘this generation’ in Mat 24:34 in the Oliver Discourse is not the generation alive when Jesus spoke, despite that being its meaning in all the other uses of the phrase in Matthew, then we are left with the rather odd statement “the generation that is alive when Jesus returns will not all be dead yet�. And this requires Jesus to say ‘Truly, I say to you�?

With respect, the usage of the term "this generation", and its identity, is a separate topic that has its own current thread.

The "wider context" I had in mind was a number of verses surrounding the two that this thread is about.

That is, those from 16:5 to 17:13.

This is a passage that could have been a chapter, of just Jesus and his disciples chatting together, about a number of topics.

[Imprecise Interrupt]

The Codex Sinaiticus dates to the 4th century, As can be seen here, the 4th century scribes thought that verses 24-28 were all one paragraph. In the right-hand panel, scroll around and you will see that verse 23 completes a paragraph (trailing blank space) and verse 24 begins a paragraph (reverse indent on first line). Verse 28 does not start a new paragraph. It ends a paragraph. 17:1 begins a new paragraph.

It is easier to see all this if you click off the image button above the right pane, making the right panel larger. With the image button clicked on, you can see in the left panel that these paragraph indicators exist in the original manuscript.

The 4th century scribes thought that verse 28 was part of the same thought as verses 24-27. Were they wrong?

Anyone can be wrong and anyone can be right.

What those scribes thought is of interest, but each of us must make our own judgment based on the wider context.

Here is some wider context:

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place

Here are all the other uses Matthew makes use of the phrase ‘this generation’.

Mt 11:6 “But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,

Mt 12:41-42 The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

Mt 23:36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

If ‘this generation’ in Mat 24:34 in the Oliver Discourse is not the generation alive when Jesus spoke, despite that being its meaning in all the other uses of the phrase in Matthew, then we are left with the rather odd statement “the generation that is alive when Jesus returns will not all be dead yet�. And this requires Jesus to say ‘Truly, I say to you�?

With respect, the usage of the term "this generation", and its identity, is a separate topic that has its own current thread.

The "wider context" I had in mind was a number of verses surrounding the two that this thread is about.

That is, those from 16:5 to 17:13.

This is a passage that could have been a chapter, of just Jesus and his disciples chatting together, about a number of topics.

With respect, the term ‘this generation’ is completely relevant to this discussion, being the ‘wider context’ of Matthew 16:27-28, illustrating its meaning.

Concerning Matthew 17, is this the idea that Matthew 28 is talking about the Transfiguration?

If so…

… are you saying that 16:27 has no connection with 16:28. According to Matthew’s extended Olivet Discourse (included chapter 25), it is when King Jesus returns that each will be repaid according to what he has done. The Transfiguration makes no mention of a kingdom, which v.28 does. Also, does it not strike you as odd that Jesus would say that of the disciples Jesus was talking to, not all of them would be dead in the next six days? Recall also that there were only three witnesses to the Transfiguration anyway.

Matthew 16
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

Matthew 17
1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.� 5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.� 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.� 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.

If you are not talking about the Transfiguration, what are you talking about that separates verse 27 and 28 as distinct subjects?