The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from the following exchange between myself and Pinseeker:

PinSeeker wrote:

The millennium of Revelation 20 is not a future event. It was when Jeremiah prophesied, obviously, but is not anymore. Or, to be more exacting, it's no longer merely a future event.

Checkpoint asked:

Then why do so many believers think of it as yet future only?

Pinseeker explained:

For at least two reasons, I think:

1. A basic misunderstanding of Revelation as a whole, and the Millennium of chapter 20 included.

2. Many believers (primarily western believers) have bought into the heresy of the "rapture," which came about in the early 19th century. It's not that they are heretics, it's just that that's all they've ever been exposed to.

That's one take from one school of thought.

Your take may be similar or be completely different.

Please share it here, and tell us why you hold that position.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 171 by myth-one.com]

What are you talking about? "Jesus did not yet exist?" He said that he came down from the Father, he said that before Abraham was born he existed, the Scriptures say that all things were created through him......With that statement by you, you invalidated everything else you said in that post.

The spiritual bodied Word existed from the beginning:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

Spiritual beings are different from flesh beings:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Jesus was the Word made flesh.

Jesus was born or made flesh between 6 B.C. and 4 B.C. or 2025 to 2023 years ago.

That is when the man Jesus began to exist.

Any "existence" prior to that point was not as the flesh and blood man Jesus Christ, but as the spiritual bodied Word.

Yes, the MAN Jesus began to exist between 6 BC and 4 BC or thereabouts, but the Person Jesus (who went by another name in heaven) existed from the beginning of the universe. Why split hairs? Jesus existed long before this planet was created. He was a glorious spirit-bodied Person in heaven---the spirit realm---and when he came to Earth he became a human with a fleshly body. So it looks like we actually agree, but I don't know why you had to make the point that you thought Jesus "did not exist" before he became a human. That is misleading.

[myth-one.com]

Yes, the MAN Jesus began to exist between 6 BC and 4 BC or thereabouts, but the Person Jesus (who went by another name in heaven) existed from the beginning of the universe. Why split hairs? Jesus existed long before this planet was created. He was a glorious spirit-bodied Person in heaven---the spirit realm---and when he came to Earth he became a human with a fleshly body. So it looks like we actually agree, but I don't know why you had to make the point that you thought Jesus "did not exist" before he became a human. That is misleading.

No. We don't agree.

The Word existed from the beginning.

Jesus was the Word made flesh -- a little over 2,000 years ago.

If Jesus existed long before earth was created, he would not have to be made again.

Jesus was flesh.

The Word was a spirit.

They were different.

Both were alive during the lifetime of the man which was the Word made flesh -- which was Jesus.

Of the two, now only the Word exists -- although we use the name Jesus and the Word interchangeably.

It's an important distinction.

The Word could not do what Jesus did.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 218 by myth-one.com]

I see. We will part saying we agree to disagree, OK?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 218 by myth-one.com]

I see. We will part saying we agree to disagree, OK?

Nah! I'll explain further. You can read it or not -- and no response is required.

Two "deaths" are described in the Bible.

Man's first death is appointed or required.

The second death is optional depending on whether one believes in Jesus.

Here is how that was set up.

Since sin and the second death passed to all mankind through one man, Adam; likewise, God will allow everlasting life to pass through one man to many others.

So the mission of the Word made flesh is to live a sinless human life.

To do that, He had to die sinless.

By doing so, He became the only man to ever qualify as an heir to everlasting life under the original covenant.

At the end of time, His name is in the Book of Life.

However, He gifts His inheritance to all those who believe in Him as their Savior.

Thus salvation becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ.

Only a man could accomplish this mission as the covenant was between man and God and only mankind dies.

Thus the Word had to be "made" flesh so that He became a party to the covenant as a man and so that He could die.

No spiritual being could do either of those two things!

=========================================================================

If Jesus returned to heaven as a man, then He did not die. Also, there's the minor fact that flesh & blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God anyway.

If Jesus accepted His reward of everlasting by being born of the Spirit as a new spiritual being as He entered heaven, then He cannot also gift it to sinners who believe in Him.

=========================================================================

The Word lived on through Jesus' life and lives today and forever more.

The Word was "made" flesh as Jesus, and somehow this process was perhaps undone or reversed upon His ascension into Heaven. But man cannot understand the spiritual world in which this would have been accomplished.

On the other hand, what returned to Heaven of the man Jesus could simply be what returns for all of us -- our history, "spirits", or nature which is written in books to be used at the judgment.

Jesus' history contains no sins, and His name is written in the Book of Life as an heir to everlasting life. After all, that is all that's was required by His mission.

Believers become joint-heirs with Jesus:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ ... (Romans 8:16-17)

Of course, Jesus gifted His reward to us.

That is what Christians believe:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

God Bless You, OnewithHim!

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus was flesh.

The Word was a spirit.

They were different.

Both were alive during the lifetime of the man .....

Of the two, now only the Word exists

"BOTH" means there were two...two "what"? Both what were alive in the first century?

JOHN 1:14

The Word became flesh

JW

[myth-one.com]

Jesus was flesh.

The Word was a spirit.

They were different.

Both were alive during the lifetime of the man .....

Of the two, now only the Word exists

"BOTH" means there were two...two "what"? Both what were alive in the first century?

JOHN 1:14

The Word became flesh

JW

Two beings.

The spiritual bodied Word and the natural bodied Jesus.

[Checkpoint]

Jesus was flesh.

The Word was a spirit.

They were different.

Both were alive during the lifetime of the man .....

Of the two, now only the Word exists

"BOTH" means there were two...two "what"? Both what were alive in the first century?

JOHN 1:14

The Word became flesh

JW

Two beings.

The spiritual bodied Word and the natural bodied Jesus.

So our one mediator between God and men is?

[JehovahsWitness]

Two beings.

The spiritual bodied Word and the natural bodied Jesus.

Two separate intelligent beings? Which one of the two said he existed before Abraham ?

JOHN 8:57,58

Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?� 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,� Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!"

Two separate beings? Which one of the two became flesh?

JOHN 1:14

The Word became flesh

JW

[myth-one.com]

So our one mediator between God and men is?

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

[myth-one.com]

Two beings.

The spiritual bodied Word and the natural bodied Jesus.

Two separate intelligent beings? Which one of the two said he existed before Abraham ?

JOHN 8:57,58

Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?� 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,� Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!"

The physical man Jesus came into existence a little over two thousand years ago.

The first mention or prophesy of Jesus is in Genesis:

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

There will be enmity between the serpent's offspring and Eve's. Every human ever born is indirectly the offspring of Eve. "It shall bruise thy head," refers to a male (his) offspring of Eve's who will bruise the serpent's head or defeat the serpent. This is how one might fight a snake. The serpent will bruise his heel. Serpents are down low on the ground, so it would probably bite one in the foot area. This hints at the crucifixion, as a crucified person's feet are nailed to the cross.

So the concept of Jesus existed before Abraham.

Two separate beings? Which one of the two became flesh?

JOHN 1:14

The Word became flesh

JW

Yes, the Word was "made or became" flesh.

During that time, the Word still existed as a spiritual being because He is eternal.

The temporary product of the making or becoming was the man Jesus Christ.