Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

RightReason wrote:

Let me ask you, why you wouldn’t want to be where God is?



There is no spot in existence where someone can be away from God if one has a personal relationship with him. On the other hand, someone alienated from God can live in heaven itself (as was the case of Satan the Devil) and not be "with" Him at all. God is, I believe with me, right next to me today, dont you believe he is with you ? Do you have to go to heaven to be with God? We dont believe so!

Christians acknowledge God is with us, however recognize God planned much more for us than the kind of experience we may have with Him while on earth. I believe I am in the presence of God right now while typing on my computer. However, I believe this presence will be drastically different in heaven because that is what has been revealed to us.

*******


The references in Psalm 37 to “inheriting the land� are directed towards the promised land of Israel, which later became a type or figure of heaven. We are told by Paul in Philippians 3:20, “our citizenship is in heaven.�


We were created to see the face of God; as David wrote, “As the deer longs for streams of water, so my soul longs for you, O God. My being thirsts for God, the living God. When can I go and see the face of God?� (Ps 42).


https://www.catholic.com/qa/how-do-i-re ... the-144000



The JW teaching that only 144,000 will be in heaven is a faulty reading of Scripture. It is extremely problematic when taken literally like the JW’s do.

********

In Revelation 7 and 14, we are told about a group of 144,000 people that will always be with the Lamb. If we take these descriptions of this group literally they would be only Jewish male virgins. This would mean means that Peter (not a virgin), the Blessed Mother (not a male), and Jehovah’s Witnesses founder Charles Taze Russel (not a Jew) would not be in heaven.


There are other problems with the Witnesses’ thesis that these 144,000 will be the only people in heaven. The book also shows 24 elders that surround the throne of God (Rv 4:4). This brings the grand total to 144,024. This number is increased dramatically by Revelation 7:9, which states there is a countless multitude before the throne. The number 144,000 is likely only a symbolic reference to the New Israel, arrived at by squaring the number of the 12 tribes of Israel and multiplying by 1000.

https://www.catholic.com/qa/how-do-i-re ... the-144000

JW’s speak of a Paradise Earth where many JW’s claim they will own houses and be with their pets from earth, and own all these other wonderful possessions, but a proper understanding of heaven would be to understand there will be no private property. There is no ownership in heaven like the JW’s seem to want to cling to. In heaven we will have nothing yet possess all things.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1049 by RightReason]

If the total number of 144,000 is taken as literal, are we not obliged to take all the other details connected to them as literal as well?

• ♦ANSWER No, nothing imposes such a blanket "all or nothing" reading. Indeed the "mixing" of a literal number with figurative detail(s) would not be unique to this case. For example, in Revelation the lamb is always without exception refered to in the singular, so there is only ONE of him. If we apply this to Jesus, then the number (one) is to be taken literally while the detail, (covered in wool, has seven eyes, and horns) are symbolic. In the same way, nothing imposes taking the additionale details literally because the number is so accepted. Thus, while Jehovah's Witnesses take the number to be literal, we do not believe the individuals spoken of are all literal descendants of Abraham or all literal male virgins.

RELATED POSTS

In what sense are the 144,000 "virgins"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 955#880955

In what sense are the 144,000 "Israelites"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 158#956158

If Jehovah's Witnesses believe only 144,000 individuals will go to heaven, why do they continue to evangelize?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 415#811415

[JehovahsWitness]

[continued from post # 1050 by JehovahsWitness]


Is the "great crowd" refered to at Revelation 7:9 also in heaven?


ANSWER No, they are depicted as standing "before the throne" not sitting on thrones* . While the 144,000 are spoke of as having been "bought from the earth" this is not the case for the great crowd who are spoken off as surviving a cataclysmic event. Further, as the bible commentary Revelation, it's Grand climax is near, explains:

...the Greek word here literally means "in [the] sight [of]" and is used several times of humans on earth who are "before" or in the sight of Jehovah. (1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:14; Romans 14:22; Galatians 1:20) - re chap 20 p. 123 par 12
Source: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101988020#h=16

*NOTE Revelation 20:4 speaks of Christ's co-rulers rulers sitting on thrones, but the only description of the great crowd or "great multitude" does not suggest they are given any form of rulership (crowns/thrones). This group is associated with with escape/salvation of a tribulation and worship.

CONCLUSION : Given the above it seeems reasonable to conclude that the great crowd or multitude of Revelation 7:9 is refering to a different group to the 144,000 and that this great crowd are in fact not taken to heaven but worship on earth.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

WHO ARE THE 24 ELDERS OF REVELATION 4:4?

REVELATION 4:4

All around the throne were 24 thrones, and on these thrones I saw seated 24 elders dressed in white garments, and on their heads golden crowns

In Revelation the same individual or group(s) are often described in different ways, for example Christ's co-rulers are described as a 144,000 strong male chorus (14:1-3) the bride/wife of the lamb (21:9) or a holy city "New Jerusalem" (21:10). These different descriptions highlight different aspects of their position or role.

• In Revelation chapter 4 verse 4 we are presented with 24 elders. We notice they have crowns depicting rulership and are sitting on thrones. They also have harps as did the 144,000 male chorus of chapter 14 (compare Rev:8) and have mastered "the new song" as did the male chorus of 14. They are also intimately associated with Christ (5:9) as are the 144,000 who are depicted as standing with him on mount Zion. Given the above it seems reasonable to conclude, that rather than being a different group to the 144,000 the 24 elders are in fact simply a different way of describing the same group, namely Christ's 144,000 heavenly co-rulers.

What is significant about the number 24?

• This reflects us of the double role of Christ's co-rulers since they will be both kings and PRIESTS. The ancient Jewish priesthood came to be divided into 24 divisions, with each serving at the temple for an assigned period. This system ensured there was a continual uninterrupted service. Thus the 144, 000 will be divided into 24 divisions each being 6,000 strong (24 x 6,000) - compare Rev 20:6

JW



Do worshippers have to literally be in heaven to be with God ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 16#p967716

[tam]

Peace to you!

[continued from post # 1050 by JehovahsWitness]


Is the "great crowd" refered to at Revelation 7:9 also in heaven?

♦ANSWER No, they are depicted as standing "before the thrones" not sitting on them .

This (the blue bit) could be a bit misleading.


The great crowd referred to at Rev 7:9 are spoken of as standing before the THRONE (singular) of God, and before the Lamb. No one is depicted as sitting on that throne except for God (and the Lamb is in the midst of the throne).


From the NWT:


After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.�




Then later in the same chapter, still describing the great crowd:

That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst* of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.�


A - the Great Crowd is in the TEMPLE.

B - the Great Crowd rendering sacred service IN that TEMPLE.


These are the duties of PRIESTS.


Rev 20:6

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


See also Rev 5:9, 10.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1053 by tam]

Duly noted: My mistake, they are spoken of as standing befor the throne, singular (Corrected)

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

If the total number of 144,000 is taken as literal, are we not obliged to take all the other details connected to them as literal as well?

Of course not, because JW’s recognized to do so contradicted their original interpretation.

It is also worth pointing out the Paradise Earth option (JW Plan B) was not originally preached. That is until JW’s realized the number of their followers were growing and there wouldn’t be room for all of them in heaven.

They also had to keep changing their end times predicted date as none of their predictions came to fruition, until they finally got smart and realized they probably should stop trying to predict the end – just as Scripture warns us in the first place.

The truth is the JW’s have changed their teachings over the years. So, how can you be sure the 144,000 and Paradise Earth scenarios won’t be something they come to change as well? I’m really not trying to be rude or anything. I am actually being very serious. Also, I have probably asked this before, but I am very curious as to why you think Charles Taze Russell was given the authority to create his New World Translation? Who was he? Who gave him permission? Why do you listen to him? Again, these are serious questions that I would love to hear your answer. Oh, also, if you think JW is true, what happened to Christ's promise over 2000 years ago when He said He would remain with the Church He established? How can you think/believe JW's is Christ's Church when JW didn't even exist until the 1900's? It just doesn't historically follow. Thank you.

[Checkpoint]

Peace to you!

[continued from post # 1050 by JehovahsWitness]


Is the "great crowd" refered to at Revelation 7:9 also in heaven?

♦ANSWER No, they are depicted as standing "before the thrones" not sitting on them .

This (the blue bit) could be a bit misleading.


The great crowd referred to at Rev 7:9 are spoken of as standing before the THRONE (singular) of God, and before the Lamb. No one is depicted as sitting on that throne except for God (and the Lamb is in the midst of the throne).


From the NWT:


After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.�




Then later in the same chapter, still describing the great crowd:

That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst* of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.�


A - the Great Crowd is in the TEMPLE.

B - the Great Crowd rendering sacred service IN that TEMPLE.


These are the duties of PRIESTS.


Rev 20:6

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


See also Rev 5:9, 10.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Reading your post has left me with the impression that "the great crowd" equates to those who reign for 1000 years.

But perhaps that is a false impression?

Grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Peace to you!

[continued from post # 1050 by JehovahsWitness]


Is the "great crowd" refered to at Revelation 7:9 also in heaven?

♦ANSWER No, they are depicted as standing "before the thrones" not sitting on them .

This (the blue bit) could be a bit misleading.


The great crowd referred to at Rev 7:9 are spoken of as standing before the THRONE (singular) of God, and before the Lamb. No one is depicted as sitting on that throne except for God (and the Lamb is in the midst of the throne).


From the NWT:


After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.�




Then later in the same chapter, still describing the great crowd:

That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, because the Lamb, who is in the midst* of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.�


A - the Great Crowd is in the TEMPLE.

B - the Great Crowd rendering sacred service IN that TEMPLE.


These are the duties of PRIESTS.


Rev 20:6

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


See also Rev 5:9, 10.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Reading your post has left me with the impression that "the great crowd" equates to those who reign for 1000 years.

But perhaps that is a false impression?

Grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you Checkpoint, and yes, you've got that right.


The great crowd which is from every tribe and nation and people and tongue (see also Rev 5:9 and 10) - which includes the 144 000 (from twelve tribes of Israel) - do reign with Christ for the thousand years.



Peace also to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

The great crowd which is from every tribe and nation and people and tongue (see also Rev 5:9 and 10) ...

Could you explain what bearing the fact that "the great cloud" included people from every tribe and nation has on the question of whether they are in heaven?