Does religious experience lead to belief in God?

[Swami]

I believe that religious and mystical experiences can lead people to believe in God. I also believe that experience can lead someone to convert from one religion to another.

A good example that involves conversion from non-belief (atheism) to belief, is Dr. Eben Alexander.

A good example that involves conversion from one belief to another belief is the Apostle Paul.

I tend to make the point that many atheists have not experienced and that's the reason why they have no belief in a transcendent reality (a reality beyond the physical body and Universe). DrNoGod, a member on the science forum, disagrees with me. He has admitted that he's studied various religions but has not experienced any their gods. Maybe he think that he's justified in remaining an atheist until he experiences. But here's my rebuttal to that.

The experiences of transcendent reality in Western religions often occur spontaneously or if or when God decides. The apostle Paul had an OBE, but he did not know how it occurred, why it occurred, had no control over it. The Eastern religions are drastically different in that they provide a way to induce spiritual experiences via meditation. This is a voluntary process and anyone, including scientists can engage in it. Under the Eastern approach, you can induce the OBE state that the apostle Paul was in.

After bringing this up to DrNoGod his reasons seemed to look more like excuses because he declined to look into meditation for himself. From this I concluded that not only was he an atheist because of lack of experience, but also because he does not want to experience. A person in this case is not truly interested in seeking God.


Topics...
Is my belief correct when I say that experience leads to belief in God or some transcendent reality? Therefore, atheists disbelieve because they have not experienced?

If someone does not want to experience, then is it reasonable to say that they are not really interested in God?

[Swami]

Based on all my experience, I can tell when someone is engaging in honest debate and when someone just wants to argue just to argue.

How did you obtain this magical ability and how can it be used to show that you aren't arguing just to argue?

When Jesus was dealing with disagreement from the Pharisees, he was not only aware of the words, but also their hearts. That level of awareness tells you a lot about a person. If you train to have that same level of awareness of yourself, then you'll realize you can have that same level of awareness of everyone else.

[Tcg]

Based on all my experience, I can tell when someone is engaging in honest debate and when someone just wants to argue just to argue.

How did you obtain this magical ability and how can it be used to show that you aren't arguing just to argue?

When Jesus was dealing with disagreement from the Pharisees, he was not only aware of the words, but also their hearts. That level of awareness tells you a lot about a person. If you train to have that same level of awareness of yourself, then you'll realize you can have that same level of awareness of everyone else.

You may be convinced by mythological tales of magic tricks that you can perform the same, but given that you haven't even attempted to provide verifiable evidence for your claims, I'm not buying it.


Add to that the fact that those you accuse of not conducting honest debate are those who disagree with your conclusions and expect you to provide verifiable evidence of your claims, the true source of this claimed magic ability is quite clear.



Tcg

[Tcg]

I'll suggest that there is a significant difference. Meditation, as opposed to any system of religious belief, involves practice without the doctrinal baggage. Of course there are those who attach particular brands of doctrinal baggage to meditation as they present it, but at the root it can be described as "spiritual technology."

Here is a list of the doctrinal baggage Razorsedge has attached to his view of religious experience:

• "I believe that religious and mystical experiences can lead people to believe in God."
  
  "I also believe that experience can lead someone to convert from one religion to another."
  
  "I tend to make the point that many atheists have not experienced and that's the reason why they have no belief in a transcendent reality (a reality beyond the physical body and Universe)."
  
  "Under the Eastern approach, you can induce the OBE state that the apostle Paul was in."
  
  "From this I concluded that not only was he an atheist because of lack of experience, but also because he does not want to experience."
  
  "A person in this case is not truly interested in seeking God."

Tcg

I think you're missing my point about "doctrinal baggage." Imagine a meditation session where the students/practitioners were instructed to face south and chant "Aum hari hari" three times before beginning -- bringing a religious element into the practice.

That is different from what you're getting at.
_________________

I'm not missing anything. The above doctrinal baggage has been developed by Razorsedge as a result of their meditation practice.



Tcg

[alexxcJRO]

You also did not address my 2nd question and point in the introduction post. If there is a way to induce these experiences and you don't explore that, then your disbelief is a choice. You want to remain in it.

Willfully ignoring my points looks rather pathetic.

Q: Sir did you missed the part were said I did experienced God through religious/mystical experience(after extensive prayer)?

There are many different religious and mystical experiences someone can have. Just because one experience fails you doesn't mean you can't have another type of experience, like NDEs. In my view, you might have given up on religion too soon.

Q: Changing again?

Atheists don’t believe because they lack religious/mystical experience. Given my example. No more. Debunked. Changing.

Speaking in tongue. Given evidence the shows it’s just gibberish(no foreign language, actual stream of speech was not organised and there was no existing relationship between units of speech and concepts). No more. Debunked. Changing.

Religious experience through meditation, prayer. Given evidence the shows it’s just a trick of the mind(activity in the networks of the superior parietal cortex or our prefrontal cortex increases or decreases, our bodily boundaries change and feel “God�+ plus this feel can be replicated on demand with the God helmet). No more. Debunked. Changing.

Now is NDE. Moving the goal post again.

Q: Are you suggesting me to experience NDE and potentially die?

Q: If all other religious/mystical experience have been show to be nothing but tricks of the mind, why believe this is anything but a trick also, huh?

Imagine if God had a very specific instruction for reaching him. If you don't follow that instruction, is it his fault or yours? If you chose not to follow, then that in effect means you want to remain apart from him.

The continuous quarrel and confusion among humans of what God is, what God wants, what God’s instructions are, the sheer amount of suffering, pain and death this has caused; the current state of the universe - a place dominated by entropy: this pitiless indifference pointed out by the randomness of natural evils which strikes left and right both moral agents and non-moral agents, by the incomprehensible huge size of it while being so overwhelmingly inhospitable to humans, a place where psychopathy and genuine disbelief exist points to a rather clear logical conclusion: God is either malevolent or indifferent or non-existent.

Also an omnipotent, omniscient being that wants to reach me but can’t it’s a logical impossibility.

[alexxcJRO]

You are making a false argument, by misrepresenting or misunderstanding Razorsedge's position.

The account of Pentacost in the Acts of the Apostles clearly states (whether we can believe it or not) that the Apostles spoke and the hearers from far-away countries heard the words of the Apostles as if in their own mother tongue:

Q: What nonsense are you babbling about?:))

Sir you are doing the thing your complaining about: you are making a false argument, by misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position/argument.

Sir Razorsedge said: “A few years ago I found one good explanation which surprisingly came from a Christian site. The explanation is that a lot of Christians misunderstand the gift of speaking in tongues. Some understand it as speaking in any gibberish. The correct understanding of the gift is the ability to speak actual foreign languages that you did not learn. “

He was talking of today’s Pentacostals not the people from the bible stories. That some Pentacostals (today) are really speaking in tongues(foreign languages) that they did not learned.

That is very different from the account of Pentacost in the Acts of the Apostles.

I did not made the claim it’s not different.

[John Human]

You are making a false argument, by misrepresenting or misunderstanding Razorsedge's position.

The account of Pentacost in the Acts of the Apostles clearly states (whether we can believe it or not) that the Apostles spoke and the hearers from far-away countries heard the words of the Apostles as if in their own mother tongue:

Q: What nonsense are you babbling about?:))

Sir you are doing the thing your complaining about: you are making a false argument, by misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position/argument.

Sir Razorsedge said: “A few years ago I found one good explanation which surprisingly came from a Christian site. The explanation is that a lot of Christians misunderstand the gift of speaking in tongues. Some understand it as speaking in any gibberish. The correct understanding of the gift is the ability to speak actual foreign languages that you did not learn. “

He was talking of today’s Pentacostals not the people from the bible stories. That some Pentacostals (today) are really speaking in tongues(foreign languages) that they did not learned.

That is very different from the account of Pentacost in the Acts of the Apostles.

I did not made the claim it’s not different.

You have very clearly misunderstood Razorsedge's position, while mistakenly deriding my clear point with " gibberish." Razorsedge, in the quote you gave, was referring to the general ability (speaking in tongues, per the biblical meaning), not the modern practice or experience (likely demon-inspired) of Pentecostal Christians.

[John Human]

the current state of the universe - a place dominated by entropy

Here you make a dubious statement which would seem to be based on nothing else than the groundless supposition that the universe is a closed system. If the reasoning throughout your recent post is just as weak, then your condescending, dismissive tone toward Razorsedge is as misguided as it is inappropriate.
_________________

[alexxcJRO]

You have very clearly misunderstood Razorsedge's position, while mistakenly deriding my clear point with " gibberish." Razorsedge, in the quote you gave, was referring to the general ability (speaking in tongues, per the biblical meaning), not the modern practice or experience (likely demon-inspired) of Pentecostal Christians.

Nonsensical ramblings devoid of any logic and accuracy born out desperation because of past impotence in supporting ones arguments.

Sir both the Penticostals of today and the Bible(“4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.�(Acts 2 2:4)) claim that under the influence of Holy Spirit people can speak foreign languages that they did not know.

Here you make a dubious statement which would seem to be based on nothing else than the groundless supposition that the universe is a closed system.

Nonsensical ramblings devoid of any logic and accuracy born out desperation because of past impotence in supporting ones arguments.

My claim was: “the universe is dominated by entropy�.

The evidence clear points to the fact that the universe is dominated by entropy.

Some systems like stars decrease their entropy while increasing it in their surrounding. Some systems like black holes decrease the entropy of their surrounding while increasing their entropy. But this is a losing battle because even black holes ultimately will evaporate cause of Hawking radiation and thus the overall entropy will increase. Living organism cause harm to other living organisms(increase entropy in their surrounding) in a fight for resources, in a fight to decrease the entropy in their system(body). But this is a losing battle because radiation, physical trauma, chemical degradation, all of these things are continuously increasing entropy in their 'local system' (body) till it becomes enough to cause a cessation of life(the system breaks down to the point that it can no longer function as a cohesive sum). Groups, tribes cause harm to other groups, tribes(increase entropy in their surrounding) in a fight for resources, in a fight to decrease the entropy in their system(group, pack, tribe).

Definition of entropy:
entropy
/ˈɛntrəpi/

Learn to pronounce

noun
1. 1.
PHYSICS
a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
"the second law of thermodynamics says that entropy always increases with time"
2. 2.
lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.
"a marketplace where entropy reigns supreme"
https://www.google.ro/search?client=ope ... UxxevMymLA

If the reasoning throughout your recent post is just as weak, then your condescending, dismissive tone toward Razorsedge is as misguided as it is inappropriate.

Q: So with what points you disagree?

Q: Is it not a fact that there was and is a continuous quarrel, confusion among humans of what God is, what God wants, what God’s instructions are?(Yes/No question)

Q: Is it not a fact that this continuous quarrel and confusion has caused tremendous amount of suffering, pain and death? (Yes/No question)

Q: Is it not a fact that there exists this pitiless indifference and randomness of natural evils (cancer, genetic diseases, hurricanes, asteroids, natural forest fires) which strikes left and right both moral agents and non-moral agents (infants, small children, severely mentally impaired, non-human animals)? (Yes/No question)

Q: Is it not a fact that the universe is incomprehensible huge in size and overwhelmingly inhospitable to humans? (Yes/No question)

Q: Is it not a fact that psychopathy exists? (Yes/No question)

Q: Is it not a fact that genuine disbelief in omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent/perfectly good/morally perfect, personal god exists? (Yes/No question)

[OnceConvinced]

Nonsensical ramblings devoid of any logic and accuracy born out desperation because of past impotence in supporting ones arguments.

Willfully ignoring my points looks rather pathetic.

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[OnceConvinced]

. If the reasoning throughout your recent post is just as weak, then your condescending, dismissive tone toward Razorsedge is as misguided as it is inappropriate.
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