Question for Debate: Is death the end of us?
One of the core doctrines of Christianity is that we live on forever--some of us in heaven, and the rest of us in hell. We must obey and believe Jesus to make it to the former and be saved from the latter. However, if death is the end of us, and our bodies and minds are no more, then this core doctrine of Christianity is false.
Physicist Sean Carroll confidently asserts that this core doctrine is false. He writes: "...there is no life after death. We each have a finite time as living creatures, and when it's over, it's over." What makes him so sure? He bases this assertion on what's known as the Core Theory of Physics. According to this theory, everything, and I mean everything, is made up of matter and forces. That's it. No spirits or ghosts. No souls in heaven or hell. All the information that makes up you and me is contained in us; namely, our brains. There is no way for that information to escape our bodies and be stored elsewhere. (1)
Which makes me a very happy man! I have no desire to forever sing the praises of a wrathful and violent god whom I know has destroyed the world and billions of people along with it. I prefer oblivion to such a horror.
(1) Sean Carroll, The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself, Page 218
Death is the end of us. So says Physics
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Re: Death is the end of us. So says Physics
Post #2Jagella: Question for Debate:[/color] Is death the end of us?[/size]
One of the core doctrines of Christianity is that we live on forever--some of us in heaven, and the rest of us in hell. We must obey and believe Jesus to make it to the former and be saved from the latter. However, if death is the end of us, and our bodies and minds are no more, then this core doctrine of Christianity is false.
Physicist Sean Carroll confidently asserts that this core doctrine is false. He writes: "...there is no life after death. We each have a finite time as living creatures, and when it's over, it's over." What makes him so sure? He bases this assertion on what's known as the Core Theory of Physics. According to this theory, everything, and I mean everything, is made up of matter and forces. That's it. No spirits or ghosts. No souls in heaven or hell. All the information that makes up you and me is contained in us; namely, our brains. There is no way for that information to escape our bodies and be stored elsewhere. (1)
Which makes me a very happy man! I have no desire to forever sing the praises of a wrathful and violent god whom I know has destroyed the world and billions of people along with it. I prefer oblivion to such a horror.
(1) Sean Carroll, The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself, Page 218
Razor: Death is not the end of us. The author says that science can not explain consciousness.
Why is that? Consciousness is not observable - it has no form. It exists everywhere and is in everything. It amazes me how much Western scientists try to figure out the nature of reality while leaving out the most important feature. They have not realized that discovering the nature of consciousness leads to the nature of reality. To leave it out of the equation is a fundamental mistake!
One of the core doctrines of Christianity is that we live on forever--some of us in heaven, and the rest of us in hell. We must obey and believe Jesus to make it to the former and be saved from the latter. However, if death is the end of us, and our bodies and minds are no more, then this core doctrine of Christianity is false.
Physicist Sean Carroll confidently asserts that this core doctrine is false. He writes: "...there is no life after death. We each have a finite time as living creatures, and when it's over, it's over." What makes him so sure? He bases this assertion on what's known as the Core Theory of Physics. According to this theory, everything, and I mean everything, is made up of matter and forces. That's it. No spirits or ghosts. No souls in heaven or hell. All the information that makes up you and me is contained in us; namely, our brains. There is no way for that information to escape our bodies and be stored elsewhere. (1)
Which makes me a very happy man! I have no desire to forever sing the praises of a wrathful and violent god whom I know has destroyed the world and billions of people along with it. I prefer oblivion to such a horror.
(1) Sean Carroll, The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself, Page 218
Razor: Death is not the end of us. The author says that science can not explain consciousness.
Why is that? Consciousness is not observable - it has no form. It exists everywhere and is in everything. It amazes me how much Western scientists try to figure out the nature of reality while leaving out the most important feature. They have not realized that discovering the nature of consciousness leads to the nature of reality. To leave it out of the equation is a fundamental mistake!
- Max Planck (father of quantum theory)I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.
Source: https://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/e ... a.asp#bk01Our scriptures declare that creation is the play of consciousness. It differentiates itself into diverse things and in the end withdraws everything into itself for no apparent and specific reason because God does nothing with any particular aim or desire. Says the Yoga Vashista, "The world is nothing but a mere vibration of consciousness in space....It is like the marvelous dream of a person who is awake."
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Aetixintro
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Re: Death is the end of us. So says Physics
Post #3[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]
As with telepathy and more mature, savant views of reality, the laws of nature are more in line with Paranormal Psychology than we have thought until recently (30 years scope by 3000 years horizon).
So there are vast instances of reality that have not been reported upon systematically, that is, by proper reality testing inside research ethics and morality!
As we conclude, there are deep reasons, by all NDEs and OBEs and Van Lommel studies in hand, to believe there is life after death, the souls are for real and the ghosts too. And the haunted, desecrated places, also by insurance industry! And the mysterious black money and white money by banking industry aided by a kind of OR gate testing mechanism!
That reality is more complex than the simplified account of Sean Carroll and his book! Please, go and check it out for real!
That's misinformation, plainly. So say I, Dr. Olsnes-Lea, Doctor Europea (Dr. Terje Lea). And so says modern Radiology (2019 and some time backwards)!Death is the end of us. So says Physics
As with telepathy and more mature, savant views of reality, the laws of nature are more in line with Paranormal Psychology than we have thought until recently (30 years scope by 3000 years horizon).
So there are vast instances of reality that have not been reported upon systematically, that is, by proper reality testing inside research ethics and morality!
As we conclude, there are deep reasons, by all NDEs and OBEs and Van Lommel studies in hand, to believe there is life after death, the souls are for real and the ghosts too. And the haunted, desecrated places, also by insurance industry! And the mysterious black money and white money by banking industry aided by a kind of OR gate testing mechanism!
That reality is more complex than the simplified account of Sean Carroll and his book! Please, go and check it out for real!
I'm cool! 
- Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!
- Stronger Religion every day! Also by "mathematical Religion", the eternal forms, God closing the door on corrupt humanity, possibly!Re: Death is the end of us. So says Physics
Post #4I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Are you saying that death is not the end because consciousness is not observable and has no form? Actually, consciousness is observable. You see it every time you observe a person acting in some way. Consciousness is what we think and what we decide to do. It is what our brains do.Razorsedge wrote:Death is not the end of us. The author says that science can not explain consciousness.
Why is that? Consciousness is not observable - it has no form. It exists everywhere and is in everything.
So to put it my own way, consciousness cannot survive death because when our brains die with us, those brains cease to do anything. Where there are no brains functioning, there are no consciousnesses.
Actually, scientists study consciousness all the time. Although we are not sure what the details of consciousness are, thanks to science we do know that consciousness comes from the brain.It amazes me how much Western scientists try to figure out the nature of reality while leaving out the most important feature. They have not realized that discovering the nature of consciousness leads to the nature of reality. To leave it out of the equation is a fundamental mistake!
Re: Death is the end of us. So says Physics
Post #5[Replying to post 3 by Aetixintro]
URANUS UBERSOAKERS OF THE YELLOW KIND! Yes, it's hot and we declare for relief -- but this is too much! There is life after death maybe in video poker, cable and internet documentaries, NFL refutations of "no tomorrow." Come off it already -- ghosts are what may appear if you're really, really hungover, or have been kneeling too long on corn kernels.Quote:
Death is the end of us. So says Physics
That's misinformation, plainly. So say I, Dr. Olsnes-Lea, Doctor Europea (Dr. Terje Lea). And so says modern Radiology (2019 and some time backwards)!
As with telepathy and more mature, savant views of reality, the laws of nature are more in line with Paranormal Psychology than we have thought until recently (30 years scope by 3000 years horizon).
So there are vast instances of reality that have not been reported upon systematically, that is, by proper reality testing inside research ethics and morality!
As we conclude, there are deep reasons, by all NDEs and OBEs and Van Lommel studies in hand, to believe there is life after death, the souls are for real and the ghosts too. And the haunted, desecrated places, also by insurance industry! And the mysterious black money and white money by banking industry aided by a kind of OR gate testing mechanism!
That reality is more complex than the simplified account of Sean Carroll and his book! Please, go and check it out for real!
What good is truth if its value is not more than unproven, handed-down faith?
One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley
Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.
One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley
Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.
Re: Death is the end of us. So says Physics
Post #6Jagella: : Consciousness is what we think and what we decide to do. This can be observed.Jagella wrote:I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Are you saying that death is not the end because consciousness is not observable and has no form? Actually, consciousness is observable. You see it every time you observe a person acting in some way. Consciousness is what we think and what we decide to do. It is what our brains do.Razorsedge wrote:Death is not the end of us. The author says that science can not explain consciousness.
Why is that? Consciousness is not observable - it has no form. It exists everywhere and is in everything.
Razor: Lets set aside any terms for a moment and stick to your description. There are external and overt aspects of our behavior. But there are parts that we can not observe because they are subjective or our inner behavior - thoughts, feelings, etc.
Jagella: : Are you saying that death is not the end because consciousness is not observable and has no form?
Razor: It seems you were arguing that consciousness does not survive bodily death because of it being based on your point about physics, etc. My point is that either consciousness is formless or it is unlike any other type of matter that we've observed before. In either case, this would mean that it doesn't function based on the laws of physics that scientists know about. They would have to discover new laws that apply to this different type of matter, assuming that it is entirely physical to begin with.
Jagella: So to put it my own way, consciousness cannot survive death because when our brains die with us, those brains cease to do anything. Where there are no brains functioning, there are no consciousnesses.
Razor: The brain is only a "medium" for the consciousness. When the brain function ceases, scientists lose the ability to "measure" consciousness but that doesn't mean the consciousness no longer exist. Only the indirect ways that they rely on for measurement no longer exist. Those indirect ways or "correlations" have not been shown to be a cause for consciousness.
Post #7
In my last post, I made this claim, " My point is that either consciousness is formless or it is unlike any other type of matter that we've observed before."
My point here is that the phenomenon of consciousness is drastically different than the brain and anything else that we know of in the Universe. For starters, it has a subjective side while everything else in the Universe is objective. Many philosophers acknowledge this, but this is best articulated by philosopher David Chalmers. Much of my insight comes from his writings and videos.
For further support of my claims I point to all of the rich experiences and insight that Eastern thinkers have produced. Based on my reading and experience, I view consciousness as formless and its implications and function go beyond just some isolated brain. Western scientists have so much that they do not know or perhaps they don't want you to know!
My point here is that the phenomenon of consciousness is drastically different than the brain and anything else that we know of in the Universe. For starters, it has a subjective side while everything else in the Universe is objective. Many philosophers acknowledge this, but this is best articulated by philosopher David Chalmers. Much of my insight comes from his writings and videos.
For further support of my claims I point to all of the rich experiences and insight that Eastern thinkers have produced. Based on my reading and experience, I view consciousness as formless and its implications and function go beyond just some isolated brain. Western scientists have so much that they do not know or perhaps they don't want you to know!
Re: Death is the end of us. So says Physics
Post #8If you wish to challenge my view of consciousness, then you must falsify the Core Theory of Physics. Can you falsify that theory?Razorsedge wrote:It seems you were arguing that consciousness does not survive bodily death because of it being based on your point about physics, etc.
Consciousness is not matter; it's the energy in the brain. It is what the brain does.My point is that either consciousness is formless or it is unlike any other type of matter that we've observed before.
The electro-chemical workings of the brain (the consciousness) as energy is well understood. There's nothing mysterious about it.In either case, this would mean that it doesn't function based on the laws of physics that scientists know about. They would have to discover new laws that apply to this different type of matter, assuming that it is entirely physical to begin with.
Again, according to the Core Theory of Physics, the consciousness is gone after death.The brain is only a "medium" for the consciousness. When the brain function ceases, scientists lose the ability to "measure" consciousness but that doesn't mean the consciousness no longer exist.
"Eastern thinkers" are welcome to challenge the Core Theory of Physics using science.For further support of my claims I point to all of the rich experiences and insight that Eastern thinkers have produced.
I've often wondered why if the consciousness can exist without a brain, then what is it doing stuck to a brain to begin with?Based on my reading and experience, I view consciousness as formless and its implications and function go beyond just some isolated brain.
Is it a conspiracy?Western scientists have so much that they do not know or perhaps they don't want you to know!
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William
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Re: Death is the end of us. So says Physics
Post #9@
Jagella: One of the core doctrines of Christianity is that we live on forever--some of us in heaven, and the rest of us in hell. We must obey and believe Jesus to make it to the former and be saved from the latter.
William: Yes. Many Theologies include The Next Phase {afterlife} in their overall doctrinaires. Many of them share the theme of Justice through reward and retribution, although the actual punishments and rewards do vary.
Jagella: However, if death is the end of us, and our bodies and minds are no more, then this core doctrine of Christianity is false.
William: One's 'ifs', 'maybes' and 'hypotheticals'.
IF one is correct that the death of the body is the end of us, THEN that would be correct. It would render all such theologies as fairly meaningless...IF death was indeed the end game.
Jagella: Physicist Sean Carroll confidently asserts that this core doctrine is false. He writes: "...there is no life after death. We each have a finite time as living creatures, and when it's over, it's over." What makes him so sure? He bases this assertion on what's known as the Core Theory of Physics. According to this theory, everything, and I mean everything, is made up of matter and forces. That's it. No spirits or ghosts. No souls in heaven or hell. All the information that makes up you and me is contained in us; namely, our brains. There is no way for that information to escape our bodies and be stored elsewhere. (1)
William: One can of course 'confidently assert' whatever they wish. This in itself, does not make something so.
The idea obviously suits some positions rather than others, but that in itself is meaningless in terms of the hypothetical, and claiming there is no experience to be had after the death of the brain, relies heavily upon the belief that we are each our brains.
Maybe that is the case, and maybe not.
Jagella: Which makes me a very happy man!
William: What is a happy man without a brain? You are a very happy brain!
Jagella: I have no desire to forever sing the praises of a wrathful and violent god whom I know has destroyed the world and billions of people along with it. I prefer oblivion to such a horror.
William: If it turns out that when you die, you remain living and aware, perhaps you will then wonder if that GOD actually exists and whether you will be forced to face him. Maybe in just you wondering, might actually make it happen for you.
No more Mr. Happy Brain.
If it were up to me, I would try real hard to sort that one out while the opportunity affords itself for me to do so on this side of Deaths Wall.
The only way I know of is to 'face my demons' on that point.
I am not confident that there is really such a GOD, but it pays to delve deeper into the idea and really sink ones teeth into WHY such a GOD wouldn't likely exist, whilst still maintaining the idea that A creator GOD may well exist, and is not at all like that wrathful and violent idea of GOD to which one would have to sing praises to forever or suffer torment in a fiery hellish place because one is not worthy...as an afterlife experience may well be coming along when this phase is completed by each of us.
Jagella: One of the core doctrines of Christianity is that we live on forever--some of us in heaven, and the rest of us in hell. We must obey and believe Jesus to make it to the former and be saved from the latter.
William: Yes. Many Theologies include The Next Phase {afterlife} in their overall doctrinaires. Many of them share the theme of Justice through reward and retribution, although the actual punishments and rewards do vary.
Jagella: However, if death is the end of us, and our bodies and minds are no more, then this core doctrine of Christianity is false.
William: One's 'ifs', 'maybes' and 'hypotheticals'.
IF one is correct that the death of the body is the end of us, THEN that would be correct. It would render all such theologies as fairly meaningless...IF death was indeed the end game.
Jagella: Physicist Sean Carroll confidently asserts that this core doctrine is false. He writes: "...there is no life after death. We each have a finite time as living creatures, and when it's over, it's over." What makes him so sure? He bases this assertion on what's known as the Core Theory of Physics. According to this theory, everything, and I mean everything, is made up of matter and forces. That's it. No spirits or ghosts. No souls in heaven or hell. All the information that makes up you and me is contained in us; namely, our brains. There is no way for that information to escape our bodies and be stored elsewhere. (1)
William: One can of course 'confidently assert' whatever they wish. This in itself, does not make something so.
The idea obviously suits some positions rather than others, but that in itself is meaningless in terms of the hypothetical, and claiming there is no experience to be had after the death of the brain, relies heavily upon the belief that we are each our brains.
Maybe that is the case, and maybe not.
Jagella: Which makes me a very happy man!
William: What is a happy man without a brain? You are a very happy brain!
Jagella: I have no desire to forever sing the praises of a wrathful and violent god whom I know has destroyed the world and billions of people along with it. I prefer oblivion to such a horror.
William: If it turns out that when you die, you remain living and aware, perhaps you will then wonder if that GOD actually exists and whether you will be forced to face him. Maybe in just you wondering, might actually make it happen for you.
No more Mr. Happy Brain.
If it were up to me, I would try real hard to sort that one out while the opportunity affords itself for me to do so on this side of Deaths Wall.
The only way I know of is to 'face my demons' on that point.
I am not confident that there is really such a GOD, but it pays to delve deeper into the idea and really sink ones teeth into WHY such a GOD wouldn't likely exist, whilst still maintaining the idea that A creator GOD may well exist, and is not at all like that wrathful and violent idea of GOD to which one would have to sing praises to forever or suffer torment in a fiery hellish place because one is not worthy...as an afterlife experience may well be coming along when this phase is completed by each of us.
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William
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Re: Death is the end of us. So says Physics
Post #10@
Jagella: I've often wondered why if the consciousness can exist without a brain, then what is it doing stuck to a brain to begin with?
William: For that matter, what is it doing stuck in this universe?
The easy answer is "The Brain did it".
Indeed, IF human beings did not die, THEN it wouldn't even be a question one would need to ask.
But we do die, and 'The Brain" is trying to inform us that there is more than meets the eye...too many tell the brain it is all just the brains 'imagination'.
Perhaps with one's final breath, The Brain might gasp the thought-words "I tried to tell you so"...and then you are on your own to deal with any after-the life-of-The-Brain experience you might end up having...
"My Thoughts and Prayers go With You..." or, in purely secular terms "Good Luck With That!"
Jagella: I've often wondered why if the consciousness can exist without a brain, then what is it doing stuck to a brain to begin with?
William: For that matter, what is it doing stuck in this universe?
The easy answer is "The Brain did it".
Indeed, IF human beings did not die, THEN it wouldn't even be a question one would need to ask.
But we do die, and 'The Brain" is trying to inform us that there is more than meets the eye...too many tell the brain it is all just the brains 'imagination'.
Perhaps with one's final breath, The Brain might gasp the thought-words "I tried to tell you so"...and then you are on your own to deal with any after-the life-of-The-Brain experience you might end up having...
"My Thoughts and Prayers go With You..."
or, in purely secular terms "Good Luck With That!"
