Death is the end of us. So says Physics

[Jagella]

Question for Debate: Is death the end of us?

One of the core doctrines of Christianity is that we live on forever--some of us in heaven, and the rest of us in hell. We must obey and believe Jesus to make it to the former and be saved from the latter. However, if death is the end of us, and our bodies and minds are no more, then this core doctrine of Christianity is false.

Physicist Sean Carroll confidently asserts that this core doctrine is false. He writes: "...there is no life after death. We each have a finite time as living creatures, and when it's over, it's over." What makes him so sure? He bases this assertion on what's known as the Core Theory of Physics. According to this theory, everything, and I mean everything, is made up of matter and forces. That's it. No spirits or ghosts. No souls in heaven or hell. All the information that makes up you and me is contained in us; namely, our brains. There is no way for that information to escape our bodies and be stored elsewhere. (1)

Which makes me a very happy man! I have no desire to forever sing the praises of a wrathful and violent god whom I know has destroyed the world and billions of people along with it. I prefer oblivion to such a horror.

(1) Sean Carroll, The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself, Page 218

[Jagella]

That's not the way it works. Your science doesn't automatically trump my science.

Actually, we all have the same science available to us. "Your science" is "my science." As such, we all have the same burden to demonstrate our case via testing and observation to be reported to other scientists and to undergo peer review. If your claims or my claims can survive that kind of scrutiny, then those claims will be accepted as scientifically valid. Otherwise, our claims will be rejected by the scientific community.

I use Eastern science and it predicts that higher levels of consciousness can be reached via meditation.

I'm sure meditation can affect the brain, but I'm not sure what a "higher level of consciousness" is. Can you explain?

... a consciousness that is as boundless as the Universe, one that is in and part of everything. I've experienced all of this.

If your consciousness is in everything, then it's in my apartment. Can you describe the layout of my apartment? If you cannot tell me what my apartment is like, then your claim that your consciousness is in everything is unproved and at least for me, hard to believe.

I've often wondered why if the consciousness can exist without a brain, then what is it doing stuck to a brain to begin with?

This is nothing more than materialist nonsense.

I think it's a very valid question. Are you unable to tell me why consciousness is stuck to a brain, or are you refusing to answer the question? If you want to make your case, then it's important to address issues people raise about what you're claiming and answer their questions. Otherwise, it will appear that you cannot substantiate your claim.

I've offered to debate anyone on religious experience and conversion, some of my evidence involves those who have experienced things while being out of their body.

I'd say that if you claim that people can be out of their bodies, then you have the burden to demonstrate that they actually were out of their bodies and not just deluded, hallucinating, or lying. Can you offer such proof?

I have no hard evidence but scientists working for the government have experimented with anomalous conscious experiences like remote viewing. They know there's something to it but they're unwilling to share it for national security reasons.

And where are the results of those experiments? Next to the bodies of the space aliens the UFO people say the government has kept in secret?

[William]

Diagoras: If similar questions are posed in S&R, Ill gladly participate.

William: Why would you participate if this is in S&R but withdraw because it is in in 'C&A'?

[William]

Razor: Can you imagine even higher levels of consciousness than this?... I can. An even higher or fuller expression of consciousness reached through meditation... a consciousness that is as boundless as the Universe, one that is in and part of everything. I've experienced all of this.

So now I have claimed that I've experienced a universal form of consciousness.

Mithrae: You suggested that we can imagine a 'universal' consciousness... so how do you know that you didn't just imagine it? A self-induced experience, as you said; what reason is there to suppose it's connected to anything real?



William: The idea that imagining something as real, is different from the idea that something which can be imagined can be experienced as real.
It is important to understand that we have no clear way in which to determine the difference other than we have the ability to think about something which is possible - such as metaphysical ideas - without experiencing them as real.
The context of Razors argument involves this idea.
In that, when Razor wrote;
"Can you imagine even higher levels of consciousness than this?... I can." he wasn't referring to having experienced that as real, but rather that he is able to appreciate that it could well be.

One can imagine having a relationship with another one is attracted to, but it won't become real just because of that.

Razor posts, in that context, reveals this. He is not suggesting anyone 'imagines' anything. He is suggesting that through meditation practices, such things that exist can be experienced as real because they exist.

[Swami]

You suggested that we can imagine a 'universal' consciousness... so how do you know that you didn't just imagine it? A self-induced experience, as you said; what reason is there to suppose it's connected to anything real?

When I transition into a pure conscious state, I become or fully realize that I am this Universe - I am this Universal consciousness. Everything is a manifestation of this source so in reality everything is it even if it doesn't appear that way.

I accept my worldview as being real because of the meditative state and because of veridical experiences. I'll go over each point.

- I consider the pure conscious state to be objective because it involves no mental input. The tool used to reach this state is meditation. The mind is the source of delusions, distractions, bias, hallucinations among other things and meditation silences it.

- If I can become part of anything and anyone while in this state, then certain things become possible. I'll tell you a short story.

One day one of my nieces went missing for some time. When I found out about it I became worried. While her parents were calling around to find her, something told me to just relax so I decided to do some meditation. During meditation, I still found myself focusing on my niece. So I made her the object of my meditation and I became so engaged in it that I lost all sense that I was focusing. All that was in my awareness was just her. One hour later her parents called and said they found her.

As a believer in Eastern thought and thinking that I somehow connected with her through meditation, I asked her did she get any sudden thoughts about me. She said no, she was out having fun and lost track of time. About two days later, I went to her mom, and also my sister, and then I had a telepathic experience where I felt a sudden happiness like a kid. And then I thought of a soccer championship game. My niece came and joined us and she started talking about her soccer tournament.

..

What I learned from this was that telepathy was one sign of this Universal consciousness. In a sense, I did merge with my niece but it did not work in the way I thought it was supposed to. I thought I would experience some connection with her during meditation but that connection became apparent to me after meditation and at the most causal time - while spending time with my sister. Perhaps the connection was only temporary or weak because I've never experienced this telepathy again.

[Swami]

I use Eastern science and it predicts that higher levels of consciousness can be reached via meditation.

I'm sure meditation can affect the brain, but I'm not sure what a "higher level of consciousness" is. Can you explain?

An expanded awareness. In one sense, it means you become more aware of yourself and surroundings. You become more aware of things that people aren't ordinarily aware of, like the when thoughts start, feelings, motivations, etc. All of these things start at the unconscious level. So as contradictory as it may sound, this is why I claim that meditation can make you more conscious of your unconscious mind.

In another sense, you expand your field of awareness. You consciousness is not limited to just your body so you can feel and sense things that go beyond the range of your senses. You can even go beyond time and space which is where telepathy, perception of the future, and many more extraordinary things come into play.

I'm sure there are levels in between these two senses. There are even lower degrees of consciousness if you consider that even a rock is conscious.

... a consciousness that is as boundless as the Universe, one that is in and part of everything. I've experienced all of this.

If your consciousness is in everything, then it's in my apartment. Can you describe the layout of my apartment? If you cannot tell me what my apartment is like, then your claim that your consciousness is in everything is unproved and at least for me, hard to believe.

What stands in the way of perceiving reality as it is (the consciousness that pervades everything, even your room) is the "mind". Your view that consciousness is isolated to just your senses and body is a mental construct. Jesus also believed this. Jesus said that if you "believe" that a mountain can jump into the sea, then if you tell it to do that, it will.

The challenge is overcoming our preconditioned beliefs. Surely, in a pure conscious state that is gained through practice and skill in meditation, I can perceive your apartment. I choose not but theoretically it can be done. There is a way that you can experience this for yourself instead of relying on me to prove it for you.

I think it's a very valid question. Are you unable to tell me why consciousness is stuck to a brain, or are you refusing to answer the question? If you want to make your case, then it's important to address issues people raise about what you're claiming and answer their questions. Otherwise, it will appear that you cannot substantiate your claim.

I've presented evidence and yet you are still unconvinced. Are you willing then to experience this for yourself?

I've offered to debate anyone on religious experience and conversion, some of my evidence involves those who have experienced things while being out of their body.

I'd say that if you claim that people can be out of their bodies, then you have the burden to demonstrate that they actually were out of their bodies and not just deluded, hallucinating, or lying. Can you offer such proof?

Again, you are unconvinced despite all of the evidence and reasons that I and others here have given you. You can start experiencing for yourself. Once you start experiencing then I can offer some insight from the Eastern perspective that may help you to increase and understand your experiences.

[kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

Does science support that? Perhaps not, depending on how you define self.

If you accept that life began as a single celled creature, that incrementally evolved into a version of itself, that i currently recognize as "me" then I think you may run into issues with death being the end of us.
End of our memories of now perhaps, but even that is beyond the veil of our ability to prove.
I imagine my individual parts will be recycled and redistributed endlessly untill the universe ends or begins a new. Death is not the end.

[Jagella]

I'm sure meditation can affect the brain, but I'm not sure what a "higher level of consciousness" is. Can you explain?

An expanded awareness. In one sense, it means you become more aware of yourself and surroundings. You become more aware of things that people aren't ordinarily aware of, like the when thoughts start, feelings, motivations, etc. All of these things start at the unconscious level. So as contradictory as it may sound, this is why I claim that meditation can make you more conscious of your unconscious mind.

In another sense, you expand your field of awareness. You consciousness is not limited to just your body so you can feel and sense things that go beyond the range of your senses. You can even go beyond time and space which is where telepathy, perception of the future, and many more extraordinary things come into play.

I placed in bold some of what you're saying that might be tested for accuracy. If you or somebody else can demonstrate that they become aware of things that ordinarily we do not know, then I might believe some of your claims about meditation. If you can use telepathy, for example, then tell me in detail what I'm thinking. If you can perceive the future, then post some detailed predictions about the future. If you can do it, then I might believe.

If your consciousness is in everything, then it's in my apartment. Can you describe the layout of my apartment? If you cannot tell me what my apartment is like, then your claim that your consciousness is in everything is unproved and at least for me, hard to believe.

...I can perceive your apartment. I choose not but theoretically it can be done. There is a way that you can experience this for yourself instead of relying on me to prove it for you.

You're not answering my question. Since you have not told me what my apartment is like, then I must conclude that you cannot tell me what it's like because your claims about meditation are not true.

I've presented evidence and yet you are still unconvinced.

You haven't given me any evidence that what you're saying is true, and until you do, I won't believe you.

Are you willing then to experience this for yourself?

If you're referring to being able to read people's minds and predict the future, then yes, I suppose so as long as it isn't dangerous or expensive. You haven't demonstrated that you've ever experienced it yourself, however.

Again, you are unconvinced despite all of the evidence and reasons that I and others here have given you.

Again, prove your case and convince me if you can. I'm not gullible so I won't believe you if all you can do is talk and complain that I don't believe you.