Major unanswered issues regarding the “literal flood"

[Zzyzx]

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In the Head to Head debate between Osteng and Zzyzx, many issues have been raised to cast doubt upon the flood being literally true. The issues have been addressed briefly, shallowly or not at all – while Osteng insists upon expounding upon a “Flood Model” that purports to be “better” than geology and other natural sciences at explaining Earth features, materials, processes, and present and past life forms.

Since the issues have not been successfully addressed, I choose to open them to general discussion. Perhaps there are theists who can help by providing information to support the “literal flood theory” – or theist members who regard the flood tale as less than literally true and who might have helpful comments -- or non-theists who might care to comment on the issues.

Note: Some of the issues raised below are from applicable genesis passages (quoted by Osteng in post #3 of the Head to Head debate). Others are in response to claims made in favor of the “Flood Model”.

There is ONE condition for discussion in this thread – substantiate, substantiate, substantiate – with real world, credible, verifiable information. Conjecture is NOT welcome in this thread. Saying, ”It could have been possible” is NOT acceptable as substantiation (that is known as a “wuss-out”). “Goddidit” and “because the bible says so” do NOT constitute valid arguments in this thread.

Although twenty issues are presented below, I suggest dealing with ONE topic at a time or one per individual post.

Major unanswered issues that cast doubt upon the “literal flood”.

1. How were the animals gathered from around the world to go aboard the ark? No rational explanation has been offered for the gathering of animals worldwide (other than a suggestion that a pair of each “kind” of animal swam, flew, walked, crawled, etc from wherever they lived worldwide to get aboard) and no credible explanation was offered for their return to their native habitats after the flood and cruise -- all without transportation

2. How were thousands or millions of animals fed and cared for on the ark? There has been no satisfactory explanation how thousands or millions of animals aboard a boat could be fed and cared for by eight people during a one-year voyage – with 100% survival to insure that species did not become extinct.)

3. How did Noah build the ark? It has not been shown to be feasible for primitive people without known experience to build a boat larger than any wooden boat known to exist (as long as one and a half football fields and as tall as a five story building -- and 1.5 times as long as the longest wooden ships known to have been built) – during an era when tools were probably stone and when the wheel was unknown (yet millions of pounds of wood were supposed cut, transported, hewn and placed).

4. How did fresh water and salt water fish survive the flood? Survival of freshwater and salt water fish through drastic habitat changes has been addressed only superficially – with the claim that “no provision is necessary because they live in water” and “fish could have been different before the flood”. No evidence has been presented that fish were significantly different a few thousand years ago, that the evolved rapidly into present form and that they then stopped evolving rapidly.

5. How did plants survive a year of being flooded? Survival of plants after a year of flooding has been addressed very superficially by citing means of reproduction NOT survival of plants per se – with conjecture to indicate that restoration of the world’s vegetation happened. No reasoning or evidence has supported the contention. Any plant that could not survive and/or reproduce after a year of flooding would be extinct.

6. How could a dove “return with an olive leaf”? Instantaneous sprouting of an olive leaf just in time to be found by a dove has been weakly discussed – and the very un-dovelike behavior (not shown to be characteristic of doves) of plucking a leaf and returning to the ark has not been shown to be anything other than a children’s bible story.

7. How could fossils have been sorted as thoroughly as we know them to exist in present rock strata if all sedimentary rock was deposited during the flood? No rational answer has been offered to the question of how fossils were sorted into distinct layers (as known to geologists) if all life forms were wiped out at the same time.

8. Unsupported Claim: “The mountains were lower before the flood” has been claimed with NO indication that the mountains were substantially different a few thousand years ago – and no explanation of how the mountains grew suddenly then slowed or stopped growing. This is diametrically opposed to what is understood by those who study the Earth and nature.

9. Unsupported Claim: “The atmosphere was a blanket of water before the flood and it never rained” – (even though people obviously lived on Earth before the flood) is pure conjecture with NO substantiation whatsoever.

10. Unsupported Claim: “The climate was more moderate before the flood” has been claimed. When challenged, the claim was “supported” by citing data relating to climate 50 Million years ago rather than 5 Thousand years ago. AND, the use of such inappropriate and inapplicable data was irrationally “defended” as being representative.

11. Unsupported Claim: “The oceans were much smaller before the flood” is another claim that is made with no substantiation at all. No credible hydrologist, geologist, oceanographer has ever (to my knowledge) proposed that oceans were significantly smaller a few thousand years ago.

12. Unsupported Claim: “The continents were all together before the flood” (unsubstantiated). This represents a distortion of geological studies (based upon actual and accurate measurements) that conclude that continents are moving (on the order of centimeters per year) in relation to one another and have occupied different configurations in the past (millions of years ago – not thousands of years ago).

13. Unsupported Claim: “Water for the flood came from vast caverns ten miles below the Earth’s surface”. NO evidence has been presented that such caverns existed or that they were filled with water. The claim is pure conjecture without even an attempt to provide support or verification.

14. Unsupported Claim: “Water ‘gushing’ out of the [supposed] caverns shoved continents apart”. No evidence is provided to even suggest this is true or that it is possible. The rate of movement apart of North America and Europe would have had to be a minimum of approximately ten miles per day (when actual movement is measured at a few centimeters per year).

15. Unsupported Claim: “Gushing water” formed the mid-oceanic ridges, carved the edges of continents, eroded materials and produced all of the Earth’s sedimentary rocks, ejected material to form comets, (and did not disturb the ark in its journey).

16. Unsupported Claim: “The Earth’s sedimentary rocks were deposited during the flood” – thousands and tens of thousands of feet of sedimentary rocks supposedly deposited in less than a year.

17. Unsupported Claim: “Dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time” (up until the flood). No answer is offered to explain why dinosaur and human fossils are never found in the same rock strata. All studies in anthropology, geology, paleontology, paleobiology, and other natural sciences (based on actual examination of conditions and materials) conclude that dinosaurs were extinct for approximately 65 Million years before Humans appeared. (Emotionally disputed by creationists based on scripture only).

18. Unsupported Claim: “Coal was formed rapidly” [during the flood]. This contrasts with the process of coal formation well known to geologists as well as mining engineers (people actually involved with the subject) – a sequence from peat, to lignite, to bituminous, to anthracite – a slow process.

19. No explanation has been provided for the accumulation of thick layers of salt and gypsum among layers of other sedimentary rocks. Both salt and gypsum are “evaporites” – materials deposited when transporting waters evaporate (as in the case of Great Salt Lake and Bonneville Salt Flats). Evaporites are formed very slowly and NOT by flooding.

20. No explanation has been provided for the presence of limestone – which consists of small, often microscopic, calcium-rich body parts of marine organisms. Deposits of limestone are known to geologists to require warm water and to be a very slow process. Deposits of limestone layers hundreds or thousands of feet thick did NOT occur in a year or in a flood condition.

21. At least twenty separate “miracles” would be required to “explain” the above – since no rational reasons, reasoning, or evidence has been provided to substantiate any of the claims beyond “it could have been possible” (if enough unsupported assumptions are accepted).

22. If “miracles” are invoked to “explain” how the flood was literally true, this is no longer a debate and is no longer scientific – it is pure theology and guesswork opposing the real world and science. “Goddidit” and “miracles” void any claim that reasoning, knowledge, experience, observation, measurement, validation have formed the basis of ideas, theories, or arguments presented.

[Tcg]

Science confirms that mega floods have occured.

The Bible claims that a global flood happened.

Boats can be built, and under the right conditions one can survive a mega flood on a boat.

The questions is, can all life survive on a "boat" for over a year.

Animals and supplies, as well as people all can be put on a boat.

Anything can be put on a boat.

Seems possible i guess to bad i cant ask the author.

The author has made himself clear. His claim is that all life survived a global flood on a "boat" for over a year.



Tcg

[kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

Same group that got lost in the desert for forty years?
Shoot, a year in a boat is a cake walk then.

So far nothing seems obviously impossible to me.

And by the way the author has made nothing clear to anyone in a long, long time.
Beef up a bit on how the old testament got to its present, Americanized Christian version.
The story is not even a Christian tale, just ask a Jew.
One take on the Torah (from the Jewish perspective) that i have heard repeatedly goes a little something like "This is what we believe, it might even be true."

[Tcg]

And by the way the author has made nothing clear to anyone in a long, long time.

The author made it clear a long, long time ago. You've admitted that you accept his claims from a long, long time ago. He obviously doesn't need to clarify any of his inconceivable claims presently, you bought the ones he made a long, long time ago.



Tcg

[kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

I did no such thing. I made it clear that the task laid out is not possible to accomplish
because we can not know what the authors intentions, meaning or the purpose for relaying this story.
There is no way to reconcile this as he can not be questioned.
Additionally the intended audience of these writings can not be questioned to clarify what they understood it to mean.

Now factually you can list out parts of the story that can be seen as possible, to ascertain if a story is outside the relm of possibility or something that adhears to the basic frame work of an event that could have happened.
Nothing seems to be that big of a stretch within the only frame work available to analyze the validity of the story.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 134 by kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

Then clearly I misunderstood your statement:

• "So far nothing seems obviously impossible to me."

I didn't realize that meant you'd need more information to consider it possible.



Tcg

[kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

Not a problem. English is not my native language so often it makes sense to me but not so much to those reading it.

[Tcg]

Not a problem. English is not my native language so often it makes sense to me but not so much to those reading it.

English is my first language and I'm sure I state things that make sense to me and not to others. It's a common problem for all.



Tcg

[Revelations won]

MY, my, Let me understand the many questions regarding the flood.

Inasmuch as God created this earth and the entire universe as we know it, then why is it so difficult to comprehend that he could also create the flood and design the ark?

Also The Bible records that the earth was divided in the "days of Peleg" So was the earth divided into separate continents before or after the flood?

When one clearly answers that question, then the geological and fossil evidence may not have anything to do with the flood.............

[JJ50]

[Replying to post 138 by Revelations won]

There is no verifiable evidence that any god exists. The flood story is not credible neither is the creation myth.

[Zzyzx]

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Inasmuch as God created this earth and the entire universe as we know it, then why is it so difficult to comprehend that he could also create the flood and design the ark?

It has NOT been established that any ‘god’ created the Earth, universe, flood, or designed an ‘ark’.

Those who base their arguments on the Bible being authoritative are encouraged to debate in the TT&D or Holy Huddle sub-forums. In this, the C&A sub-forum, the Bible is considered no more authoritative than any other book.

Also The Bible records that the earth was divided in the "days of Peleg" So was the earth divided into separate continents before or after the flood?

When was the Earth flooded? Evidence?

One cannot legitimately ask ‘before or after’ unless they specify the date.

When one clearly answers that question, then the geological and fossil evidence may not have anything to do with the flood.............

Anyone may feel free to ignore scientific information that contradicts their preferred religious beliefs. However, that does not constitute critical / analytical thinking or reasoned debate.