What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[ttruscott]

Agreed?

No, I prefer the scholarship of http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm

[marco]

CONCLUSION Even allowing for poetic license, an analysis of 2 Sammuel 22:6 does not present an example of sheol being used as anything other than how it is consistently used in the bible, namely as a symbol of the death common to all humans.

I think there is little doubt that although some people argue that hell is simply death, or the deprivation of the beatific vision, Jesus himself saw hell as a place of punishment. Why otherwise would he declare in Matthew 26:24 that it were better for that man if he had not been born? This suggests some terror rather than timeless death, which would be no different from timeless "unborn-ness". That the mention of hell is accompanied by figurative fire also suggests torture of some sort.

It is interesting that Hades is an alternative for sheol. Classical mythology is more generous in its descriptions than Christian mythology: Hades has five rivers, the main one being the Styx and there is one that grants forgetfulness, Lethe. But in Tartarus there are tortured prisoners. Hades wasn't a place of restful death for some.


Revelation 21 is not coy about the tortures that await the sinful dead - even liars:
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."


It is interesting that we might see the use of parallelism as contradicting Christ's vision of horror. But when one says that they are in hell one is using a quality of hell, for dramatic effect. Death is just silence - it has no snares or fires or threats, so death is not the object of comparison. I think that it is wrong to take hell as a synonym for death. Christ appears not to have thought so and very often Christ's view carries weight.

[JehovahsWitness]

Agreed?

No, I prefer the scholarship of http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm

So could you scrunch all that up and give us a one sentence definition of ...

SHEOL

SOUL

DEATH (physical)

... ?

For purposes of debate, we need to have agreed upon terms that participants would know exactly what is being referred to.

JW

[marco]

[Replying to post 200 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm not particularly interested in what people believe over and above what they believe THE BIBLE communicates on the point.

Uuummm . . . ok, but that is actually unbiblical.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say the Bible alone is our authority. So, to have an honest fruitful Christian discussion, one would need to look at both Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition.

I have a certain sympathy with this view since Jimmy Jones, opening his Bible, requires guidance. Those who adhere exclusively to Biblical truth invariably offer the explanations they have received, and accepted. It is not the case that the Bible has been their tutor: some wise Hebrew scholar and some articulate preacher perhaps have added their widow's mite.

Sacred Tradition is one of those things that seem nice, like the vestments worn by a priest during Lent or the incense ascending to heaven above a coffin. There is no doubt that some things merit dignity and respect.

[PinSeeker]

I don't really understand what your point is about describing Heaven.

Just that He doesn't describe heaven. But He does describe hell at least to some extent. And for the record, I agree with you that his descriptions were not literal; the reality of hell is -- I think assuredly -- infinitely worse, but the descriptions make it very clear that hell is... hell.

What does that mean? If you have been following the discussion at all you will have seen that "Hell" has been misrepresented by translators, particularly those that follow exclusively the King James Version. The references to FIRE were not describing "Hell." The word "hell" is translated from the Greek word "Hades," and Jesus spoke of it merely 3 times in the Scriptures, and none of those times did it refer to literal hell-fire. So what does your statement mean---"the descriptions make it very clear that hell is...hell"?

I said from the first time I posted in this thread and several times since that the fire referred to in Luke 16 and other places where hell is described in the New Testament is not literal. I guess to make it clearer, I could have written it thusly:

"...the descriptions make it very clear that the Hell (the place) is "hell" (very much undesirable, and thus to be avoided at all costs).

The reality of hell is that it is THE GRAVE. It doesn't hold any fire.

No, the reality of hell is that it is the realm of the dead/wicked. It may or may not have any literal fire, but that's not really worth speculating about. What we can assuredly say is that hell is an "eternal fire," meaning it is altogether, um, shall we say, uncomfortable, for eternity. Fire is referred to throughout Scripture as a means to bring one of two things: God's blessing or God's judgment. It is solely the latter (judgment) that is focused on in every discussion of hell, Hades, Sheol -- all references to the realm of the dead -- in the Bible. The difference between the Old Testament and New Testament with regard to fire is that in the former, it is literal, while in the latter, it is figurative (and spiritual, actually). This would be intensely consistent with a great many things we could talk about in the Bible, like:

• * literal sacrifice in the Old Testament vs. figurative sacrifice (presenting our bodies as living sacrifices -- Romans 12:1) in the New Testament
  
  * observing the Law in the Old Testament vs. observing the Law in the New Testament (where Jesus, with all his "but I tell you" statements in the Sermon on the Mount, tells us that observing the law is not just a matter of deed but far more than that, a matter of the heart -- and is summed up by loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and loving others)

Where does Jesus describe "Hell"? Luke 16 doesn't hold up, because it is an ALLEGORY meant to reveal the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, not show any realities of "Hell."

Oh, but it does. I agree that it is allegory, but it represents a truth (as all allegories do) and gives us some truths (as all allegories do). Those truths are that hell is:

• * a place of eternal existence, "torment," and judgment of the dead/wicked
  
  * wholly... uncomfortable...
  
  * cannot be escaped

Where else does Jesus describe "Hell"?

See previous PinSeeker posts.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 172 by onewithhim]

That's what I am saying. How can people be comforted being told that their loved ones are dead?

I would think that anyone would be comforted knowing that their loved ones are actually "resting in peace." Isn't that what people say when someone dies? The dead person is not wandering around somewhere. That person is "at rest," conscious of nothing, as if he were asleep, and he will be brought back to life again on this earth where we will be able to interact with them just as we did when they were with us before they died. These resurrected ones will not even be cognizant of the time that has passed. They won't even realize they were dead.

Isn't that more comforting than to wonder where your loved one is and whether or not they are happy or sad? Many cultures believe that the living have to appease the dead with all manner of offerings or else the dead will do harm to them! It is much more comforting to know that the dead cannot do anything to the living.

"...There is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave [Sheol], where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 170 by onewithhim]

Do you want to converse or not?

Why let someone think you are all for it, and then do a u-turn? How is a person supposed to believe you are being genuine?

I explained why.

[onewithhim]

Are you saying when a person dies, the soul is simply a memory of the complete physicial form of the person's body in the mind of God? If so, what does it mean that God would destroy the soul in hell? That God would no longer remember him and wipe him from his memory?

Yes, that is right. When a person is dead and returns eventually to dust, he is remembered by God, even though his body has disintegrated. His "soul," or, everything about that person, is remembered by God and can bring that person back.

So a person is purely a materialistic body?
How would your concept of a person differ from an atheistic perspective of a person?
In what state would God restore the person? When she had died? When she was a teenager?

When God created man out of dust, he was not just dust. God also had to breathe in him the breath of life.

[Gen 2:7 KJV] 7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Didn't you feel compelled at all to do some research on "Hell" and "Gehenna"?

Um, what do you think I've been doing?

I think that I've posted enough here to show that I believe much more than that a person is merely a material BODY. An atheist does not believe that humans were created by God, so their viewpoint is that ......they don't know exactly how life began, and they feel that when we die THAT'S IT. I have posted my beliefs, and they are that God created us, BREATHED INTO ADAM THE BREATH OF LIFE, and will bring us back to life again after we die. I wonder how you can just skim right over what I say and then call me on it as if I didn't say it.

The Bible doesn't say just exactly at what stage in our life God will restore us to, but it stands to reason that the resurrected ones will not have any illnesses or disfigurements. If He brings them back as the age that they died, we believe that that person will immediately begin to grow younger, over the course of perhaps a few weeks. Babies will just continue to grow from their babyhood.

Jesus died here when he was just over 30. We think that probably resurrected ones will stop getting younger when they reach the equivalent of 30 years old, and children won't grow past 30 or 33 years old. That's all speculation, but one thing we know for sure---people won't be old anymore, and no one will be sick. These Scriptures are very comforting, showing how it will be in Paradise on Earth:

"Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor." (Job 33:25, NWT)

"He forgives all our errors and heals all our ailments; he reclaims your life from the grave and crowns you with his loyal love and mercy. He satisfies you with good things all your life, so that your youth is renewed like that of an eagle." (Psalm 103: 3-5)

"And no resident will say: 'I am sick.' The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error." (Isaiah 33:24)

"At that time the eyes of the blind will be opened, and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. At that time the lame will leap like the deer, and the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy." (Isaiah 35:5,6)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 126 by Imprecise Interrupt]

I think I remember that "the right thing" included honoring Jesus as Lord and doing what he said to do. That involves some kind of belief in him. He said:

"You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14)

• John 13
  34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
  
  John 14
  21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.�
  
  John 15
  12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

It is love that is the commandment. There is no mention of ‘honoring Lord Jesus’. Love entails action, else what is the point? Jesus laid down his life for mankind because of love. Matthew 19 required loving your neighbor as yourself for eternal life, and has Jesus point away from himself and toward God as the authority for this (V 17). The story of the Sheep and the Goats emphasizes action, even when there is no awareness of any ulterior motive for the action. (“When did we…�) In the story of the Good Samaritan there is no mention of honoring Jesus, only God. Loving your neighbor is all about action.

In John 14:21, the word translated as commandments (�ντολάς) is plural. What commandments (plural) did Jesus give? How about Matthew 19?

You seem to think that I disagree with you about ACTIONS. I do not. It's very clear that a person must DO certain things to be God's friend, and part of that is to be JESUS' friend. You wrote yourself that Jesus said, 'you are my friends if you DO what I command you.' I had posted that also.

Matthew 19 is good, showing things that Jesus expects his friends to do or not do.

Your point that all honor or glory goes to God, the Father, is right on the money. Even everything that Jesus did was for his Father's glory.

"God exalted him to a superior position...and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9,11)

[onewithhim]

The phrase "weeping/wailing and gnashing of teeth" occurs 7 times in the NT. 6 times in Matthew and 1 time in Luke.

[Mat 8:12 KJV] 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 13:42 KJV] 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 13:50 KJV] 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 22:13 KJV] 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 24:51 KJV] 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 25:30 KJV] 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Luk 13:28 KJV] 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

It is uttered only by Jesus. The phrase is all used in a parable with the context of judgment.

Gnashing of teeth is used elsewhere in the Bible:

[Psa 35:16 KJV] 16 With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.

[Psa 35:16 AMP] Like godless jesters at a feast, They gnashed at me with their teeth [in malice].

Verse does not refer to some kind of torment, but as an expression of anger.

[Act 7:54 KJV] 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.

[Act 7:54 AMP] 54 Now when [a]they heard this [accusation and understood its implication], they were cut to the heart, and they began grinding their teeth [in rage] at him.

[Act 7:54 NLT] 54 The Jewish leaders were infuriated by Stephen's accusation, and they shook their fists at him in rage.

Again, this verse uses gnash teeth as an expression of anger.

It's also referenced in Job where God himself gnashes his teeth.

[Job 16:9 KJV] 9 He teareth [me] in his wrath, who hateth me: he gnasheth upon me with his teeth; mine enemy sharpeneth his eyes upon me.

Again, it's used as an expression of anger.

We use the phrase today in a similar way.

gnash your teeth - to show that you are angry or annoyed about something bad that you can do nothing to stop

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dic ... your-teeth

So, the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" would most likely mean extreme sadness and rage.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is symbolic of utter despair, regret, anger, and uncontrollable rage.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/christian ... the-bible/

Why would there be sadness and rage? Because the people cast into hell would be disappointed and angry they were not allowed entrance into heaven, but into hell. It is less likely to mean they are crying and expressing agony while suffering torture in hell.

I would say that the anger and despair is something that wicked people experience BEFORE they die. It is not something that occurs after they are dead.

"The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all....There is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave [Sheol], where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)