What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 196 by JehovahsWitness]

You make excellent points!! That Sodom and Gomorrah are still "suffering" the action of eternal fire show that the "eternal fire" is absolutely symbolic of eternal annihilation. How do we know? Because Sodom and Gomorrah do not exist any more.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 197 by otseng]

"Breath of life" and "soul" are two different things.

BREATH OF LIFE: ru'ach; by far, the majority of references to "ru'ach" are related to god's spirit, his ACTIVE FORCE, his holy spirit.

SOUL: ne'phesh[; the Scriptures show "soul" to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or animal has.


So, they are not the same thing, and it would benefit each of us to understand the difference.

[onewithhim]

CONCLUSION Even allowing for poetic license, an analysis of 2 Sammuel 22:6 does not present an example of sheol being used as anything other than how it is consistently used in the bible, namely as a symbol of the death common to all humans.

I think there is little doubt that although some people argue that hell is simply death, or the deprivation of the beatific vision, Jesus himself saw hell as a place of punishment. Why otherwise would he declare in Matthew 26:24 that it were better for that man if he had not been born? This suggests some terror rather than timeless death, which would be no different from timeless "unborn-ness". That the mention of hell is accompanied by figurative fire also suggests torture of some sort.

Why? You use the word "figurative." That means that it isn't literal. So how can you see "hell" as a place of literal torture?

And with all our discussion on what the word "hell" actually means, why do you lean on Luke 16 to say that hell is a place of torture?

When Jesus said that it would be better that someone like Judas had never been born, where is the reference to eternal torture? Isn't eternal DEATH worse than anything? A person is gone, can't think, can't do anything. Why do you think that isn't the ultimate punishment? And to say that God tortures people in a fire is to say that he likes to do that, because there is no reason in this world that a person should be tortured forever
with no hope of ever coming out of it. What is accomplished? God would be a sadistic monster. It is much more merciful to just put the person to sleep forever. Just like the person was before he was born.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 206 by PinSeeker]

As I said.....we have to just agree to disagree.

After all the discussion and proving that "hell" is merely the common GRAVE of all mankind, you won't concede that we have a point.

I won't respond to your posts from henceforth. It's very difficult trying to discuss something with someone who ignores a person's argument.

[marco]

Why? You use the word "figurative." That means that it isn't literal. So how can you see "hell" as a place of literal torture?

I said Jesus saw it as such, from all he says about it. I said that "eternal fire" was a figurative way of saying there was torture. I didn't say hell was figurative. Presumably to describe torture there requires the writer to use earthly terms. I can't see any other meaning than torture. Death doesn't fit.

When Jesus said that it would be better that someone like Judas had never been born, where is the reference to eternal torture? Isn't eternal DEATH worse than anything? A person is gone, can't think, can't do anything.

I explained the point clearly. The state of not being born is exactly what you describe as death. Jesus said it were BETTER not to be born, the suggestion being some threat or punishment. If as you say hell is eternal non-feeling, then this is no worse than the state of being unborn. You will have to revise your idea of hell.

And to say that God tortures people in a fire is to say that he likes to do that, because there is no reason in this world that a person should be tortured forever
with no hope of ever coming out of it. What is accomplished? God would be a sadistic monster. It is much more merciful to just put the person to sleep forever. Just like the person was before he was born.

I thought we were discussing the Bible's portrayal of hell, not yours. The description I gave from Revelation does not match your eternal silence in death. As for God punishing, if you read the OT you will find he does this very well, whether oen would call it sadistic or not. As a footnote it might be useful to point out that the Koran DOES say Allah burns people perpetually and their God is a derivative of Yahweh.

I think it is very generous of a religion to attempt to erase the notion of hell as a place of punishment but surely to do so runs counter to all that Christ said.

[tam]

Peace to you both,

(following the exchange between OWH and marco)

[Replying to post 214 by onewithhim]

When Jesus said that it would be better that someone like Judas had never been born, where is the reference to eternal torture? Isn't eternal DEATH worse than anything?

There is no reference to eternal torture, you are correct. But in this scenario, death is not worse than anything. If it were, then why would Judas have killed himself? To him, something else must have been worse than death.



Some people do not seem to be taking into consideration (or understanding) the extreme remorse, shame, guilt, even fear that such a person (Judas in this example) would be feeling. Enough that he would rather be dead - even wish that he had never been born! Hence, he killed himself!




People are the ones coming up with all these horrible torments (burn alive forever, scream in pain and agony for all eternity, etc). Just look at the tortures that man has come up with to literally torture their fellow man. That does not come from God! Such things do not enter His mind. Is that not what He said through one of His prophets about those who burned their children in the fire? (Jeremiah 32:35).



God's ways are higher than our ways.


Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[marco]

So, they are not the same thing, and it would benefit each of us to understand the difference.

Spirit, soul, principle of life - these are separate from the body but included in a person's life. We have many references to the body as separate from the soul:

Hebrews 10: 39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.�


JAM 5:20

“let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.�

1 Pet. 2:11

“Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul.�

3John 1:2

Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.


When God made Adam a "living soul" he caused the clay to be alive.... at least poetically, since it is incomprehensible that we would take the poetic account in Genesis as literal. Jesus suggested that we can save the body but lose the soul. That would seem to say conclusively we are composed of the two. That's been the view in many cultures for millennia. It is odd to want to change it because of a line of poetry.

[William]

@208

William: Do you want to converse or not?

Why let someone think you are all for it, and then do a u-turn? How is a person supposed to believe you are being genuine?

onewithhim: I explained why.

William: Very well. I won't respond to your posts henceforth. It's futile trying to discuss something with someone who ignores my argument.

[marco]

People are the ones coming up with all these horrible torments (burn alive forever, scream in pain and agony for all eternity, etc). Just look at the tortures that man has come up with to literally torture their fellow man. That does not come from God!

I completely agree with you here, Tam, but I do not see that the Bible does. I accept that some people, driven to suicide, experience awful regret. I accept your suggestion that remorse is painful and might make some wish they had never been born. But there are too many references to sulphurous pits of torment to ignore them. Perhaps God has no plans to torture - but those who wrote about him certainly thought he does.


Go well

[Imprecise Interrupt]

[Replying to post 126 by Imprecise Interrupt]

I think I remember that "the right thing" included honoring Jesus as Lord and doing what he said to do. That involves some kind of belief in him. He said:

"You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14)

• John 13
  34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
  
  John 14
  21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.�
  
  John 15
  12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

It is love that is the commandment. There is no mention of ‘honoring Lord Jesus’. Love entails action, else what is the point? Jesus laid down his life for mankind because of love. Matthew 19 required loving your neighbor as yourself for eternal life, and has Jesus point away from himself and toward God as the authority for this (V 17). The story of the Sheep and the Goats emphasizes action, even when there is no awareness of any ulterior motive for the action. (“When did we…�) In the story of the Good Samaritan there is no mention of honoring Jesus, only God. Loving your neighbor is all about action.

In John 14:21, the word translated as commandments (�ντολάς) is plural. What commandments (plural) did Jesus give? How about Matthew 19?

You seem to think that I disagree with you about ACTIONS. I do not. It's very clear that a person must DO certain things to be God's friend, and part of that is to be JESUS' friend. You wrote yourself that Jesus said, 'you are my friends if you DO what I command you.' I had posted that also.

Matthew 19 is good, showing things that Jesus expects his friends to do or not do.

Your point that all honor or glory goes to God, the Father, is right on the money. Even everything that Jesus did was for his Father's glory.

"God exalted him to a superior position...and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9,11)

My point is that even knowing anything about Jesus is not part of the requirements. In Matthew 19 Jesus makes it clear that it is not about him but doing what God wants. In the Sheep and the Goats the righteous are just doing the right thing as they see it unaware of religious motives but are rewarded for it. In the Good Samaritan, the Samaritan knows nothing about Jesus yet he is considered righteous.

• Romans 2
  14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Paul is saying that everyone has an innate moral sense that they need to follow and on which they will be judged.

Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. (John 14:21)

Keep those moral requirements and you are a friend of Jesus even if you do not know it. That is what I see there.