Is your sin "Original"?

polonius · Post by **polonius** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:43 am

Another bible fiction which became rather pervasive in Christianity is the claim of the "stain" of Original Sin (the first sin of Adam) of which we all bear the guilt even though we were born thousand of years after it was committed.

Because we all have this "stain," a "merciful God"(?) damns the unbaptized to spend eternity suffering in hell even infants who die. Or so the story goes.

Later on it was agreed that this was rather harsh, so the unbaptized not guilty of any serious sin were consigned to 'Limbo" a state of "natural happiness" in which, however, the person is denied the beatific vision of God which was important for some reason.

Many Catholics and Protestants haven't kept up so don't realize that Pope Francis abolished it obviously because it was realized that it was a fiction.

However, the full effect of this hasn't been felt yet. The Catholic Church's "doctrine" of Mary's Immaculate Conception is also void if there is no Original Sin to begin with.

Post by **otseng** » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:42 pm

ttruscott wrote: I don't care what it seemed like to you, that it misses the mark is expected.

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Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:06 am

ttruscott wrote:
William wrote:... your own theology has entities being punished for eternity. Thus, these ones are not dead at all. Your theology has it that "the wages of sin is a living hellish torment for eternity."

Not death.[/color]
The meaning of death: death means separation and the consequences of that separation

1. When attributed to a physical body it means that the spirit has left the body and the body is decaying. The spirit is not dead, the body is dead, separated from the spirit.

2. Eternal death, ie, spiritual death, occurs when the spirit is separated from GOD. It is still self aware but it is alone for eternity. That too is called a death as a separation from all of HIS created reality and being banished to past the edge of our physical universe, either dimensionally or physically.

You have conveyed your opinion well, but that is all it is, your opinion as to what death is and means.

I could express my opinion too, but if, like yours here expressed, it would not have any authority if it was not also presenting scriptures to back up each assertion made.

That this feels like a living hellish torment for eternity is a what they chose rather than have to live with HIM as their husband even to the point of rejecting the method of the sinful elect to become elect first then to go their own way safe from hell, but that demeaned the greatness of their commitment to their hatred of HIM.

Really?

Grace and peace to you.

Avoice · Post by **Avoice** » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:09 am

Original sin

Am I a pathetic sinner unable to make God smile because Eve hated God?

If I were in Eden and another voice tempted me to disobey God I wouldn't have done it.

Any wrong I have done it's my fault no one else's fault. It's not Satan's fault what Eve did. Nor can I blame Satan for anything I did. My fault.

The only thing I have in common with Eve when it comes to this topic is that we have free will. Christianity teaches that you can do nothing to save yourself. If that's true then choosing Christianity can't save you.

If we were born bad and couldn't do good or make good choices then we wouldn't have free will. We'd be incapable of choosing good or bad

The idea that because Eve sinned we have been infected with her hate for God is not true
If we were then Cain and Able with you have been infected. If it were true why did God tell Cain:

"And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.'
________________
Christianity- teaches man sins because he is a sinner
Judaism - teaches one is a sinner when he sins

God believes you can do good.
The Christian testament says you can't.

Christians may believe IN God but they don't believe Him

Snap out of it! Original sin. [rolling my eyes]
__________________

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:18 am

Avoice wrote:The only thing I have in common with Eve when it comes to this topic is that we have free will. Christianity teaches that you can do nothing to save yourself. If that's true then choosing Christianity can't save you.

If we were born bad and couldn't do good or make good choices then we wouldn't have free will. We'd be incapable of choosing good or bad

A strong argument I resolved for myself many years ago by accepting our pre-earth creation and life where we had a free will and chose our own FATE by choosing our eternal relationship with YHWH. Some chose to be sinners losing their free will and then were moved to the Earth after the creation of the physical universe so we could be redeemed and sanctified with LIVES predetermined perfectly to that end with no free will until after our rebirth.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:59 am

[Replying to post 93 by ttruscott]

Did your pre-earth self not have free will?

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:54 am

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 93 by ttruscott]

Did your pre-earth self not have free will?

In the post you replied to I wrote:
A strong argument I resolved for myself many years ago by accepting our pre-earth creation and life where we had a free will and chose our own FATE by choosing our eternal relationship with YHWH.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:58 pm

ttruscott wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 93 by ttruscott]

Did your pre-earth self not have free will?
In the post you replied to I wrote:
A strong argument I resolved for myself many years ago by accepting our pre-earth creation and life where we had a free will and chose our own FATE by choosing our eternal relationship with YHWH.

So God created intelliigeent moral bejngs that chose to rebel and thus fixed their fate? Did He create them faulty?

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:59 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:So God created intelliigeent moral bejngs that chose to rebel and thus fixed their fate?

Well, almost. I have thought a lot about the difference between righteous and evil and innocent... I decided that if we had a real ability to make a free will choice we had to be not righteous or that would compel us to only choose righteousness, nor could we be evil or that would compel us to choose evil.

We had to be innocent and that had to mean that pre-choice, we had no moral disignatinon at all...innocent. When we made our first moral choice we became designated as that choice. Those who accepted HIM as their creator GOD and the salvation offered in HIS Son were counted as righteous and so elected to be HIS heavenly Bride. Those who rejected HIS claims and promises became the eternally evil ones, unable to repent. When a righteous elect rebelled against GOD's plans for us, they became the sinful elect...they lost their righteousness but not their election.

So, yes at the time of our choice we were intelligent, mature and innocent, that is, not moral having never made a moral choice to become good or bad yet.

Did He create them faulty?

I do not claim so. HE created every person perfectly in HIS image with a perfect free will and the perfect ability and opportunity to make a moral choice: to either put their faith, their unproven hope, in HIM and HIS claims or to reject HIM by their faith, an unproven hope HE was not GOD.

HE is not a rapist to force anyone into marriage against their will so a free will uncoerced non-constrained choice was the only way to separate HIS creation into those who wanted HIM as their GOD from those who would rather take their chances on hell being a lie than to be married to HIM in heaven.

brianbbs67 · Post by **brianbbs67** » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:10 pm

[Replying to post 97 by ttruscott]

Genesis 5 disagrees with you. Adam created men in his image.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:03 am

[Replying to post 97 by ttruscott]

"righteous" and "innocent" 're open to interpretation, which is why I used the word "faulty"

Were they created absolutely perfect free from any default, in short were they created perfectly reflecting God's the matchless standard God had for them at that time. At the moment of their creation were they 100% what God wanted them to be?