Jesus is God

[For_The_Kingdom]

First of all, I never knew that so many suspected "unbelievers" in the Christian religion were so fascinated about whether or not Jesus is God. If you don't believe in Jesus or God, then why do you care? It blows my mind.

Anyway..

I have a Biblically simplistic way of proving that Jesus is God..

Argument from Perfection: The Bible is clear, Jesus was/is without sin (morally perfect). The argument goes like this..

1. Only God is without sin
2. Jesus is without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

#1 is virtually undisputed. #2 is Biblical based on two immediate Scriptures..

a. 2 Corin 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".

b. Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin".

Now, the idea is; if you replace Jesus' name in #2 with ANY other name in Heaven or on Earth, the proposition becomes false and the entire syllogism is false.

The conclusion is simple; in order to be God, you must be without sin..and to be without sin, you must be God. Jesus meets/met those requirements, therefore, Jesus is God.

Argument from John 14:1-9: Long story short, Jesus was constantly preaching/lecturing about "The Father this, The Father that"...until Philip finally said "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be good enough"...and Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

Jesus is saying that seeing him is the same has seeing the Father...but if the Father is on SUCH A HIGH PEDESTAL and is light years ahead of any other entity in Heaven or on Earth, how dare Jesus say "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

In other words, if the Father took on human form and made his dwelling among us on Earth, his form would be Jesus.

If the Father is God, and Jesus said to see him is to see the Father, then Jesus must also be God. This just follows logically.

Argument from Hebrews 1:3: "The Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of his being.."

This is the same reasoning applied to Heb 4 (above). If God is the holiest of all holiest, how can any other being come close, must less be the "exact representation" of his being?

How can you be the "exact representation" of someone that is the epitome of holiness/righteousness...unless you yourself is also the epitome of holiness/righteousness?

Actually, you can sum up all three arguments as the "Argument from Perfection"..and of course, there are plenty of other "Trinity proof" Scriptures that I can throw in there, but I wanted to attack this from a different angel.

And lastly, as much as these arguments harmonize, they are all independent...so even if you manage to wiggle your way out of one...you still have to deal with the others.

Actually, there is no way out; Jesus is God, whether we like it or not.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 389 by AgnosticBoy]

I see no reason to believe that the Holy Spirit refers to a "force". Even if the Holy Spirit is not God that doesn't automatically mean that this SPirit is not personal.

The Holy Spirit doesn't need to be a person to be personal. The Baptist points out that the medium he baptizes in is water, but later baptism will be "in spirit".

Jesus doesn't sent a person to be an Advocate, but sends his spirit to comfort them. They have Jesus objectively in front of them, but he must leave so that they may receive his spirit within them subjectively. The spirit dwells within. The spirit is not an entity that objectively exists.

The father has a name. The son has a name, but for some unknown reason no one seems all that concerned that there is no name for the spirit. Go figure.

[William]

shnarkle: The father has a name. The son has a name, but for some unknown reason no one seems all that concerned that there is no name for the spirit. Go figure.

William: I figure it thus;
The Father is not named, other than as the title "The Father".
The Son has many names, including "Jehovah". As Jehovah, the Son over-extended in his role of GOD, bringing a shadow on the overall idea of GOD, in regard to human understanding. Jesus, on The Fathers Order, corrected the wrong, allowing for Humans to have access to the actual nature of GOD - in The Father.
The Holy Spirit, is "The Mother", and can be regarded as the primary nature of GOD.

[Avoice]

Father, son, Holy spirit, joseph Smith

Maybe he is a four headed God? Joseph Smith could be one, right?

[Tcg]

Father, son, Holy spirit, joseph Smith

Maybe he is a four headed God? Joseph Smith could be one, right?

Can you present evidence that anyone considers Joseph Smith a God? If not, how is the relevant?


Tcg

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 404 by William]

'God' is in the masculine gender in the NT Greek.

The Father's personal name is YHWH (traditionally transliterated as Jehovah). (Isaiah 63:16; 64:8) His title is 'Father.'

The Son's personal name is 'Jesus'. His title is 'Son'.

The Spirit's personal name is ......? His title is... Spirit? 'Spirit' is in the neuter gender.

'Father,' of course, is in the masculine gender.

'Son' is in the masculine gender.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 397 by brianbbs67]

As an example God commanded we keep the Passover to remember the day get brought us but of Egypt. To eat no leaven for a week. The Christian testament preaches that nothing that goes in the mouth is bad. They eat pig. God said not to eat it. Why do they listen to Paul from Tarsus and not their creator?

How can you say that the Christian testament upholds the laws God commanded?

I keep Passover as outlined in the Tanakh. Mark 7:19 phrase at the end is a spurious addition. It was a marginal note by a scribe that was later added. As to why Paul is weighted heavier than Christ, his words are more easily twisted by the unstable as they do all writings(scripture is an english invention). 2 Peter 14-18.

The original disciples and their synagogues all kept the law as outlined in Torah. They just deleted the traditions of man that negated God's law. After the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 and Bar Kochba reveolt in 135. Rome and Greece assumed control and the rest is history.

Paul and Yeshua bin Yosefh both always instructed pure law without the man made traditions. Duet. 13 is a good test for any prophet.

So, basically modern Christianity has been misled for at leat 1800 years. Jesus never made a single christian. He called the lost sheep of Israel back and then welcomed others to believe and follow. The "NT" cannot contradict the Old or it should be discarded.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 397 by brianbbs67]

As an example God commanded we keep the Passover to remember the day get brought us but of Egypt. To eat no leaven for a week. The Christian testament preaches that nothing that goes in the mouth is bad. They eat pig. God said not to eat it. Why do they listen to Paul from Tarsus and not their creator?

How can you say that the Christian testament upholds the laws God commanded?

I keep Passover as outlined in the Tanakh. Mark 7:19 phrase at the end is a spurious addition. It was a marginal note by a scribe that was later added. As to why Paul is weighted heavier than Christ, his words are more easily twisted by the unstable as they do all writings(scripture is an english invention). 2 Peter 14-18.

The original disciples and their synagogues all kept the law as outlined in Torah. They just deleted the traditions of man that negated God's law. After the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 and Bar Kochba reveolt in 135. Rome and Greece assumed control and the rest is history.

Paul and Yeshua bin Yosefh both always instructed pure law without the man made traditions. Duet. 13 is a good test for any prophet.

So, basically modern Christianity has been misled for at leat 1800 years. Jesus never made a single christian. He called the lost sheep of Israel back and then welcomed others to believe and follow. The "NT" cannot contradict the Old or it should be discarded.

I agree with everything you just posted here, but I would also add the fact that the Old and New Testaments both distinguish two ways to keep God's law. The old way which is by choosing to keep it according to one's own will and effort, and the new way which is where God chooses to regenerate the children of Israel and Judah for the expressed purpose of keeping his laws.

The problem with the old way was that trying to keep the law is ultimately just an excuse to fail. Whereas the new way is according to God's promise which insures one will keep God's law not just in their heart, but outwardly as well.

When people don't clarify what's really going on, it sounds like they're suggesting that the law isn't being kept, and eventually that's what Christians end up teaching.

I find it incredibly ironic that so many people view the idea of sinning with impunity as good news, but the very idea of being enabled by the power of God's holy spirit to keep his commandments is revolting to them.

[William]

[Replying to post 407 by ]

tigger2: The Father's personal name is YHWH (traditionally transliterated as Jehovah). (Isaiah 63:16; 64:8) His title is 'Father.'

William: That is a common perception, I will grant you that. YHWH is also a Title. While it is important to understand Jehovah as a Father-figure, we are informed from the start that Jesus is that GOD.
Therefore, while Jesus did connect the two for particular reasons, The Father is not Jehovah. The Father is Jehovah's Father, because Jesus is Jehovah.

tigger2: The Son's personal name is 'Jesus'. His title is 'Son'.

William: That is one of the names Jesus is known by yes. "Son" is also just one of many titles he is known of.

tigger2: The Spirit's personal name is ......?

William: Again, Titles. The Holy Ghost will suffice.

tigger2: His title is... Spirit? 'Spirit' is in the neuter gender.

William: Indeed, we are all spiritual beings, so no real gender to speak of...both, all etc...even so, you referred to It as gender specific, so since there is a Father and Son, then Mother is appropriate for the Holy Ghost, since all in all we are each made in the image of, both man and woman.

For that matter, It is The Holy Ghost who created all that is, including The Father and through The Father, also The Son...

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 397 by brianbbs67]

As an example God commanded we keep the Passover to remember the day get brought us but of Egypt. To eat no leaven for a week. The Christian testament preaches that nothing that goes in the mouth is bad. They eat pig. God said not to eat it. Why do they listen to Paul from Tarsus and not their creator?

How can you say that the Christian testament upholds the laws God commanded?

I keep Passover as outlined in the Tanakh. Mark 7:19 phrase at the end is a spurious addition. It was a marginal note by a scribe that was later added. As to why Paul is weighted heavier than Christ, his words are more easily twisted by the unstable as they do all writings(scripture is an english invention). 2 Peter 14-18.

The original disciples and their synagogues all kept the law as outlined in Torah. They just deleted the traditions of man that negated God's law. After the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 and Bar Kochba reveolt in 135. Rome and Greece assumed control and the rest is history.

Paul and Yeshua bin Yosefh both always instructed pure law without the man made traditions. Duet. 13 is a good test for any prophet.

So, basically modern Christianity has been misled for at leat 1800 years. Jesus never made a single christian. He called the lost sheep of Israel back and then welcomed others to believe and follow. The "NT" cannot contradict the Old or it should be discarded.

I agree with everything you just posted here, but I would also add the fact that the Old and New Testaments both distinguish two ways to keep God's law. The old way which is by choosing to keep it according to one's own will and effort, and the new way which is where God chooses to regenerate the children of Israel and Judah for the expressed purpose of keeping his laws.

The problem with the old way was that trying to keep the law is ultimately just an excuse to fail. Whereas the new way is according to God's promise which insures one will keep God's law not just in their heart, but outwardly as well.

When people don't clarify what's really going on, it sounds like they're suggesting that the law isn't being kept, and eventually that's what Christians end up teaching.

I find it incredibly ironic that so many people view the idea of sinning with impunity as good news, but the very idea of being enabled by the power of God's holy spirit to keep his commandments is revolting to them.

I hear you and so did a frustrated Paul. "What shall we do then, sin, so that may grace abound? Heavens, NO!"

Sin is lawlessness, breaking the law of God. Sin consists of not only missing the mark, but hitting the wrong thing. All of us have sinned. Even the NT describes sin this way. Paul does too.

Conversely, no law equals no sin. Even the NT defines sin as breaking the law. Oh, where is the law? Its readily available. As you describe, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit(God), makes following it easy. I will paraphrase " make your body a Temple that God may dwell in".

To the general reader, read Jeremiah 31 and Psalm 119. The law(of which only about 25% applies in our current state and government) is not hard. Its all about making yourself acceptable to God(the goal). Holy. That is how Christ could sum it up the way he and Hillel and others did. 1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul.(the Shema, Duet 6:4+) 2. Do unto to others as you would have them do unto you. Love your neighbor as yourself. These encompass the Whole Law. They do not negate it. Common Hebrew thought at the time and today, in some respects.

The reason that they encompass all God's commands is, that if you are doing them and living them, the rest just magically falls into place because of your mindset. God's spirit will lead you on that journey. "draw nigh unto Me, and I will draw you nigh", YHVH.

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 406 by Tcg]

Doesn't have to be Joseph Smith. Anything could be another head. Why stop at three parts to the God. Four , five or more. Maybe there's more. If someone starts a religion that claims God has more heads then what? If people believe God has three heads they'll believe he has more won't they?