What is the Biblical view of hell?

Post by **otseng** » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:32 pm

SallyF wrote: The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

Divine Insight wrote: In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

bluegreenearth · Post by **bluegreenearth** » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:17 pm

Eloi wrote: [Replying to post 479 by bluegreenearth]

Understanding what the Bible really teaches depends on how much of what the Bible says as a whole the reader knows. Even if the Bible is a collection of 66 books, everything it says is in harmony, and that can be understood only with a real study of everything it says, not reading a single page ...

This is also an unfalsifiable interpretation which relies heavily on a post-hoc rationalization influenced by confirmation bias. Anyone can reach the identical conclusion for any collection of related texts by deploying post-hoc reasoning motivated by the desire to confirm the appearance of harmony among them. The only way to mitigate for your obvious confirmation bias here is to identify a version of your claim that is falsifiable and demonstrate where it survives every attempt you and others have made to falsify it. Once you've accomplished those tasks, we can revisit the validity of your perspective.

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:28 pm

[Replying to bluegreenearth]

I thought in this section of the forum the veracity of the Bible was not to question.

If your post is about different interpretations, that does not mean anything at all. When Jesus Christ was on earth, he did not worry that the Pharisees understood everything he said. He knew that every effort to help them would be useless. The Bible is not going to be understood or accepted by everyone, and I do not speak of the book as such, but of the truth it contains. It is easy to see how many religions teach doctrines that openly contradict the Bible. It is a clear example of what I say.

tam · Post by **tam** » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:56 pm

Peace to you,

Eloi wrote: [Replying to post 479 by bluegreenearth]

Understanding what the Bible really teaches depends on how much of what the Bible says as a whole the reader knows. Even if the Bible is a collection of 66 books, everything it says is in harmony, and that can be understood only with a real study of everything it says, not reading a single page ...

This is not accurate. There are many people who have read and seriously studied the bible (in parts and as a whole), but that does not mean they understand what they have read, and it does not mean that their interpretations are correct. The bible does not lead people into all truth. People who knew and studied the scriptures still did not even see the Truth when He was standing right in front of them. John 5:39:

"You diligently study the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

Even the apostles needed Christ to open the scriptures to them (Luke 24:27, 32, 45). So do the rest of us. If we want to know the truth - including the truth about anything written in the bible - then we must come to and listen to Christ. HE is the one who will lead us into all truth.

Not the bible, not religion, not men.

Just Christ, the living Word of God.

May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear so as to get a sense of this truth; and may anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, as the Spirit and the Bride say, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"

(which water is holy spirit, poured out from Christ Jaheshua, given to Him without end from His Father)

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

bluegreenearth · Post by **bluegreenearth** » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:59 pm

Eloi wrote: [Replying to bluegreenearth]

I thought in this section of the forum the veracity of the Bible was not to question.

I must admit that if this forum prohibits anyone from questioning the veracity of the Bible, I'm not aware of such a rule or even its purpose. Any intellectually honest person seeking the truth would never prohibit the questioning of any proposed idea including the idea that the Bible is a reliable source of information for the concept of hell.

If your post is about different interpretations, that does not mean anything at all. When Jesus Christ was on earth, he did not worry that the Pharisees understood everything he said. He knew that every effort to help them would be useless. The Bible is not going to be understood or accepted by everyone, and I do not speak of the book as such, but of the truth it contains. It is easy to see how many religions teach doctrines that openly contradict the Bible. It is a clear example of what I say.

Even the claim that the Bible contains truth is a matter of interpretation. If your epistemology is such that only those Biblical interpretations which agree with your perspective or the perspective endorsed by your denomination of Christianity are true, then your epistemology contains logical fallacies which renders it unreliable. I recommend you adopt an epistemology that mitigates for confirmation bias.

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:09 pm

Coming to Jesus is not waiting for Jesus to come and tell somebody what to believe. Jesus sent his disciples to teach the truth they heard from him, and today there are persons who have been sent by Jesus to continue the work he started. Perhaps the problem is that some people do not know what is the way to identify who Jesus is sending at this time.

Matt. 7:15Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheeps covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

... 23:33Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge-henna? 34For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; 35that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech-a-riah son of Bar-a-chiah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation.

... 24:14And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

... 28:19Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.

Matt.10:40He that receives YOU receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:17 pm

tam wrote: ...the dead are sleeping, as Christ described Lazarus as having fallen asleep. Paul also refers to the dead as sleeping. Sleep may be a euphemism for (the first) death, but people who are sleeping do not cease to exist.

This is correct.

tam wrote: The second death on the other hand is complete destruction (from fire). Anyone who receives the judgment of the second death DOES cease to exist.

This is incorrect; thus my disagreement. Those who suffer the second death are cast out and thus depart (Matthew 25, Revelation 20), just as Adam and Eve were banished from Eden in Genesis 3:24. And they enter into a conscious, eternal state of torment under the judgment of God, the source of their anguish being that they long to be out from under God's judgment (in Abraham's bosom) forever but cannot cross the chasm (Luke 16:26). This is their "worm" that does not die (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:44). Jesus portrays this very clearly in Luke 16.

tam wrote: There is nothing left of the person that could even BE resurrected.

If that were true, it would be true of all those who physically died before the return of Jesus. But we know (and agree that's not true for the believer, so it's not true for the unbeliever, either. The physical body of all those who have physically passed, believer or otherwise, is reconstituted and reunited with that person's spirit just before the Judgment, described in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20. The Judgment ensues, and those on Jesus's right enter into eternal life, and those on His left depart into that eternal state of torment under God's judgment, as described above.

Grace and peace to you all.

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:24 pm

[Replying to post 486 by PinSeeker]

Adam and Eve are not in any "hell".

Gen.2:7And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul. (...) 16And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.

... 3:19In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.

bluegreenearth · Post by **bluegreenearth** » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:27 pm

tam wrote:
Even the apostles needed Christ to open the scriptures to them (Luke 24:27, 32, 45). So do the rest of us. If we want to know the truth - including the truth about anything written in the bible - then we must come to and listen to Christ. HE is the one who will lead us into all truth.

Not the bible, not religion, not men.

Just Christ, the living Word of God.

If I understand this correctly, you need Jesus to guide you to the proper interpretation of the Bible. However, it is your interpretation of the Bible or someone else's interpretation that led you to believe the Biblical claims about Jesus. So, then how can you rely upon Jesus to guide you to the proper interpretation of the scriptures and provide you with the truth if your reliance upon Jesus originates with your own or someone else's interpretation of the Bible? How is your logic not circular?

PinSeeker · Post by **PinSeeker** » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:21 pm

Eloi wrote: Adam and Eve are not in any "hell".

I didn't say they were. But they were banished from Eden, and in the same way, those who experience the second death will be banished from paradise.

tam · Post by **tam** » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:37 pm

Peace to you bluegreenearth,

bluegreenearth wrote:
tam wrote:
Even the apostles needed Christ to open the scriptures to them (Luke 24:27, 32, 45). So do the rest of us. If we want to know the truth - including the truth about anything written in the bible - then we must come to and listen to Christ. HE is the one who will lead us into all truth.

Not the bible, not religion, not men.

Just Christ, the living Word of God.
If I understand this correctly, you need Jesus to guide you to the proper interpretation of the Bible.

I need Christ (Jaheshua) to lead me into all truth (including in what is written if need be).

However, it is your interpretation of the Bible or someone else's interpretation that led you to believe the Biblical claims about Jesus.

I'm not sure how much interpretation goes into a simple retelling of events.

I always believed in God (long before I ever read the bible)... and no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them. God is the One who led me to Christ (Jaheshua), His Son.

As for some reasoning about what is written, I could hear and see the beautiful truth and wisdom in His words and teaching. This helped me to believe what He said about Himself as well. How could a man speak such beautiful truth and wisdom (all from love) and at the same time be a liar about who He is and who He came from? That did not make sense to me. (Of course you or someone else may then suggest that the people who wrote about Him could have been lying, but there is the same kind of dilemma - the beautiful truths from His teachings. So someone else taught such beautiful truth and wisdom, but that person was a liar?)

I already believed in God (and His Son) before this of course, but that was some understanding and reasoning along the way.

.So, then how can you rely upon Jesus to guide you to the proper interpretation of the scriptures and provide you with the truth...

Because my Lord (Jaheshua, not "Jesus") is not dead; nor is He just some character in a book that a person can read about but never actually know (or be known BY).

Christ lives and speaks, and His sheep listen to His voice:

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. Rev 3:20

if your reliance upon Jesus originates with your own or someone else's interpretation of the Bible? How is your logic not circular?

I'm not sure this conclusion or question still applies based upon the above. But even if a person first heard about Christ (and God) from something written or from another person bearing witness, how would that prevent them from going to Christ (or God) directly, to learn more accurately (truthfully) from them? To come to know them and to be known by them?

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy