How do we define the umpardonable sin?

[marco]

In Matthew 12:31 we have: “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.�

Was Jesus just being dramatic here, trying to frighten his listeners? What on earth is "blasphemy against the Spirit"? Did Jesus, somewhere, elaborate on this dramatic statement?


And in what way is such blasphemy worse than, say, mass murder?

[marco]

[Replying to post 5 by Difflugia]

Imagine observing Jesus raising a dead person and saying that he got his power from the demons! That's really evil.

1Samuel 28 should help here. The Witch of Endor did as Saul asked. Perhaps Jesus acquired his power from the same source.

Why is this an unreasonable view?

Here's the passage:

Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?�

“Bring up Samuel,� he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!�

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?�

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.�

14 “What does he look like?� he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,� she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 6 by onewithhim]



WHAT IS THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN?

• I think "sinning against the Holy spirit" involves more than holding a false belief regarding God's actions. For example, those that believed the first century leaders assessment of Jesus, may well have believed Jesus had a demon, because they trusted what their religious leaders were saying was the truth, and were duped into believing a lie. Those unfortunate were not guilty of sinning against the holy spirit. It involves deliberately acting against evident manifestation of God's will and being past the point of repentance in that regard. Note a QR to The Watchtower
  ...

Source https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1969608#h=3

Persons who with full knowledge deliberately oppose God and Christ, hide the truth and propagate falsehoods make themselves guilty of sinning against God’s spirit​—a sin that cannot be forgiven. - Awake 1978 Feb 8, p. 27 par 6

This type of sin is related to what we read in Hebrews 10:26: “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.� So there is a deliberateness or willfulness about this kind of sin. One callously sins, fully aware of the fact that he is going directly contrary to the operation of God’s spirit and His righteous laws. - w69 8/15 p. 512

JW

Go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SIN and ...REDEMPTION

[PinSeeker]

Yes I rather suspected Christ meant something other than what he said.

I see; you suspected something other that what is actually the case. Why am I not surprised?

The Holy Spirit isn't involved.

Oh, but the Holy Spirit is involved in everything. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so it is with the Holy Spirit (John 3). God is always present; this was true from the beginning (Genesis 1) and is true today and beyond.

The Pharisees, like many people today, wisely hesitate to accept the words of what they see as a street magician.

Yes, they are "wise" in their own eyes (Proverbs 26:12). As so many today are.

The unforgivable sin is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit by calling Jesus a devil after being enlightened by that same Spirit.

This does not make a lot of sense...

To you. Sure. Again, not surprising.

I cannot imagine there are any humans who "knowingly reject the Holy Spirit".

In their actions -- what they say and do -- and in who they are in the core of their being, they do. It really shouldn't be that hard to imagine, but I understand. Sin can be either by omission or commission.

The good news -- for Christians, anyway -- is that all those who are Christians... those chosen by God, His elect... will be kept from committing this sin by God Himself through the power of His Spirit.

I think you mean that the good news is there are some humans who have been selected, perhaps randomly...

Well, nothing is random; all is according to God's appointment (i.e., Acts 13:48), and there are no wasted parts (Romans 9:21-24)...

...for a prize in a divine lottery and they, while not understanding the term any better than poor Marco, will be kept out of areas where they might just transgress.

Yes, this is what I said.

This seems pleasantly artificial...

Things are often not what they seem...

...and a tad unfair.

What would have been fair is if God had selected no one. But that's grace: unmerited favor (Romans 5:8, Ephesians 2:8).

Grace and peace to you, marco.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 5 by Difflugia]
Imagine observing Jesus raising a dead person and saying that he got his power from the demons! That's really evil.

1Samuel 28 should help here. The Witch of Endor did as Saul asked. Perhaps Jesus acquired his power from the same source. Why is this an unreasonable view?

Here's the passage:

Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?� “Bring up Samuel,� he said. When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!� The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?� The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.� “What does he look like?� he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,� she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

This is a case in point; God was present here also in the person of the Holy Spirit, although unseen. God brought Samuel back from dead, either literally in the person of Samuel or spiritually in the giving of a vision of Samuel -- either would be by His Spirit -- to remind Saul of Samuel's prophetic words, documented in 1st Samuel 15:23, when he was alive:

• "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.â€�

The fact that Saul went out to battle the next day proves the truth that Jesus Himself later spoke in Luke 16:31:

• “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, then they will not be convinced even if someone rises up from the dead.â€�

The story of Endor reminds us all of the importance and clarity of the divine word. He who speaks to the dead soon joins them. I would say that Saul himself committed the unpardonable sin. All those not appointed by God to eternal life (again, i.e., Acts 13:48 and elsewhere) do; it's who they are.

Grace and peace to you all.

[marco]

Yes I rather suspected Christ meant something other than what he said.

I see; you suspected something other that what is actually the case. Why am I not surprised?

You are not surprised because you've possibly misunderstood. Let me surprise you:

The only unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Your explanation of this sin involves the refusal of the Pharisees to accept Christ as their Messiah, which is a perfectly understandable position and doesn't concern the Holy Spirt. Thus, as I said, Christ's words do not mean what they seem to mean.

It really shouldn't be that hard to imagine, but I understand. Sin can be either by omission or commission.

Permit me to correct you. One can certainly sin by omission; but no matter how we sin, we COMMIT. We in fact sin through thought, word, deed or omission.

What would have been fair is if God had selected no one.

On the contrary, having no favourites is eminently fair. The human race is filled with unfortunates, maimed from birth. This seems - on the face of things - to involve divine unfairness, but who can judge? It would be interesting to know God's criterion for choosing, if he has one. Go well, Pinseeker.

[PinSeeker]

Yes I rather suspected Christ meant something other than what he said.

I see; you suspected something other that what is actually the case. Why am I not surprised?

You are not surprised because you've possibly misunderstood. Let me surprise you:

The only unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Your explanation of this sin involves the refusal of the Pharisees to accept Christ as their Messiah, which is a perfectly understandable position and doesn't concern the Holy Spirit. Thus, as I said, Christ's words do not mean what they seem to mean.

Again, I'm surely not surprised. The fact is, Christ's words do not seem to you to mean what they really do mean; what Christ is saying is far deeper than you imagine (which is a recurring pattern). I was very clear before, and even more so now. So, facetiously speaking, of course, nice try.

It really shouldn't be that hard to imagine, but I understand. Sin can be either by omission or commission.

Permit me to correct you. One can certainly sin by omission; but no matter how we sin, we COMMIT. We in fact sin through thought, word, deed or omission.

Which is about halfway what I said. No correction necessary; indeed, please allow me to correct you. By way of explanation:

* A sin of commission is a sinful action -- thoughts, words, and deeds included.

* A a sin of omission is a sinful failure to perform an action -- thoughts, words, and deeds included.

And here we have, once again, a subject in which your thinking is a little shallow. But hey, I know you can do better, so there's that.

What would have been fair is if God had selected no one.

On the contrary, having no favourites is eminently fair. The human race is filled with unfortunates, maimed from birth. This seems - on the face of things - to involve divine unfairness, but who can judge? It would be interesting to know God's criterion for choosing, if he has one. Go well, Pinseeker.

If God had "favorites," we would not see passages in His Word like:

* John 3:16 -- "... whosoever believes in Him...:

* Romans 10:9 -- "...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved..."

* 1st Timothy 2:3-4 -- God "...desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth..."

So, your definition of 'fairness' is far too low and short-sighted.

A fair judge gives those whom he or she judges exactly what he or she deserves. And God does just that. Again, if God were completely fair, by this definition, we would all spend eternity in hell paying for our sin, which is exactly what we deserve.

But, as with all things, it goes much deeper than that with God; there is this thing called grace. Although not obligated to extend this grace to any one of us, He chose to do that, because He is also merciful and good. That he chooses not to extend the mercy and goodness of salvation to some is not somehow unfair, but merely His prerogative as Creator and God.

All in all, the complete sovereignty of God over His creation is hard to accept for some, for sure. Nevertheless, He is the potter and we are the clay, and the potter has a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use (Romans 9:21).

God is a King, not a President.

Grace and peace to you, Marco.

[Difflugia]

If God had "favorites," we would not see passages in His Word like:

* John 3:16 -- "... whosoever believes in Him...:

* Romans 10:9 -- "...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved..."

* 1st Timothy 2:3-4 -- God "...desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth..."

* Mark 4:10-12 -- "...to those who are outside, all things are done in parables, that ‘seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand, lest perhaps they should turn again, and their sins should be forgiven them.’ "

[marco]

This is a case in point; God was present here also in the person of the Holy Spirit, although unseen.

The Witch worked magic. You magically construe this as the involvement of the Holy Spirit. Given this means of explanation, we can happily assume the omnipresence of the Spirit in all eventualities and argument ends.

[marco]

Again, I'm surely not surprised. The fact is, Christ's words do not seem to you to mean what they really do mean; what Christ is saying is far deeper than you imagine (which is a recurring pattern).

I said: "Christ's words do not mean what they seem to mean."
This is not the same as what you quote me as saying. Basically: Christ says X. You interpret X in a curious way and simply affirm your interpretation is right. Fair enough.

* A sin of commission is a sinful action -- thoughts, words, and deeds included.

* A a sin of omission is a sinful failure to perform an action -- thoughts, words, and deeds included.

Commission is the act of committing. When people sin, by whatever means, they COMMIT. By NOT doing what one is supposed to do one is committing a sin of omission. You would say they are guilty of commission (of sin) but not of commission. Quite so.

What would have been fair is if God had selected no one.

If God had "favorites," we would not see passages in His Word like:

* John 3:16 -- "... whosoever believes in Him...:

* Romans 10:9 -- "...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved..."

* 1st Timothy 2:3-4 -- God "...desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth..."

So, your definition of 'fairness' is far too low and short-sighted.

You are not providing counterexamples. It is possible for God to have favourites, and still give prizes to those who uphold his laws.

But, as with all things, it goes much deeper than that with God;

The ways of God are not mysterious to some fortunate humans, it seems. Perhaps on this very forum he has favourites to whom he imparts the unknowable.

All in all, the complete sovereignty of God over His creation is hard to accept for some, for sure. Nevertheless, He is the potter and we are the clay, and the potter has a right over the clay,

I think those who dismiss Yahweh are not interested in metaphors about divine soveriegnty. Clay is inanimate stuff and its relation to the person who works in it is not one of servitude. It is rather depressing to think humans are inanimate clay. Did not God, in myth, endow some of us with a brain? All this is few constellations away from the Holy Spirit against whom we're not to blaspheme. Surely we should be discussing him and not the Potter or the Capenter. Go well.

[ttruscott]

Sins are not better nor worse than each other since absolutely any deviation from HIS righteousness has an ultimate disvalue in GOD's eyes. This means that sins themselves cause no difference in HIS response to sin...all differences between HIS response to sinners is found in the people themsleves, not their sins.

This is a statement of an idea about the way God works. How can we know this?

First, we all already know this and because of our self chosen sinfulness suppress this truth because we love sin more, Rom 1.

Second, we are called to live by faith, an unproven hope, instead of by proof, the certainty of knowledge, because without faith we cannot please GOD. Faith supersedes proof because it is based upon hope. It proves that the person really does want what GOD is offering even without proof - while the right proof at the right time even puts Satan on his face before HIS glory but because he does not really want a relationship with YHWH, he reverts to rebellion every time.

And finally, we do realize the knowledge of the truth again when we are reborn and as we are sanctified. Our hope grows into a conviction of the truth and that conviction grows into an assurance of the knowledge of the reality of YHWH's divinity and power.

What were those (Satan et al) who chose to reject YHWH as their GOD thinking to take the chance on ending in hell IF HE were ever to prove HIS deity and power? IF they experienced GOD in HIS glory (as orthodoxy likes to suggest) they must have also been aware they they themselves could NOT manifest such glory and that they could never surplant HIM as GOD and no rejection of HIS deity could have happened. This proves we all were only aware of HIS claims to be our creator GOD and were asked to accept HIM on faith, that is, an unproven hope (holding our scepticism in abeyance for the time being) and it was our response to HIS claims that separated all creation into HIS family, flock, church, OR HIS eternal enemies.

I accept that the theological geometry on which you form your theorems can be made consistent with Scripture. Once we enter that world and subject ourselves to its statutes, there are no arguments against it. The big difficulty is accepting the axioms that you take for granted.

To be fruitful, the axioms of PCE need not have one's full commitment as perfect but only as an impetus to seek the truth they are point toward. If a person would really like to live within a GODly experience without evil, then understanding how this world of evil may have come to logically exist should open a door to proceed by faith, a HOPE not proven, a hope it will all be proven (again).

as eternally unsuitable to be chosen to be HIS Bride.

I find the marriage metaphor inappropriate.

The use of the concept of marriage to explain the full communion of fellowship with full emotional and intellectual unity is Biblical. And its placement as the final culminating event of the Bible coming at the end of this world after it is cleansed from all evil and starting the next life seems to be to me the purpose for this world, the reason we live here and not elsewhere and the start of the next order of existence of marriage, the ultimate purpose for which HE created us. The axiomatic logic of this premise fits just as strongly as all the others. It is the blue ribbon that ties up the parcel to present it as a gift.

The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:
They had to commit strongly to the belief that YHWH's claims were false, that HE was lying about heaven and hell, that HE was lying about sin and death and that therefore HE was a false god, no god at all and as the first liar, HE was the most sinful evil person in all of creation.

This is NOT how it works. Unbelievers see Yahweh not as a liar or deceitful engineer, but the product of human minds, just as Atlas and Achilles were. I don't see that this theory is any more sinful than supposing the Earth orbits the sun.

You speak of the human sinful experience of physical reality while I speak of the experience of spirits in the spirit world in their innocence.

Of course the experience of being innocent but mature 'adult' spirits deciding about the truthfulness of highly unusual claims is not reproduced the same on earth by degraded humans already enslaved to sin. Earthly life is a new experience so a person's heart will naturally be expressed in a way that fits the current situation better according to their processing of reality. The veil of darkness is only a chain of darkness for those who have sinned the unforgivable sin who therefore cannot repent.

The sin is unforgivable because it changes the person at their core so that they cannot ever repent to be able to be forgiven NOT because GOD has chosen that this sin is the one sin so horrible that HE WILL NOT forgive it.