In one theological line Christ was sent by God to die for the sins of mankind. Bizarre though this is, let us accept that God's plan was for Jesus to die and then rise again. Had everyone accepted Jesus, they would have thwarted God's plan. Instead of curing a blind man or casting out devils or producing wine, had Christ channelled his miraculous energies into something so spectacular and beyond discussion and argument that Rome would have heard and bowed, then God's plan would have been ruined. Part of the divine plan seems to have been doubt and ambiguity.
But what part did Judas play? He was used as an instrument of betrayal; was it beyond Christ to prevent the suicide of Judas, if he had been so close to the man? We must then accept that Jesus is largely responsible for the preventable death of his friend.
Does the role of Judas cast doubt on the whole theology of Christ as redeemer and saviour?
Was Judas part of God's plan?
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Re: Was Judas part of God's plan?
Post #21Guilty of what? Certainly not guilty of blasphemy if that is what you are referring to. There is nothing he said or did that even came close to his being blasphemous.marco wrote:
.... Jesus was unfortunately a guilty man..
JW
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Re: Was Judas part of God's plan?
Post #22It's not often someone makes me laugh out loud on this forum, and as you may have picked up I'm not taking kindly to all this blasphemy against my Lord, but that comment did make me laugh. I don't agree with you (there's a surprise) but it did lighten my mood.marco wrote:
The guilty party in all this is Jesus, for letting Judas commit suicide...
JW
ps: I'm fully aware of the personal abuse that will probably be heaped (ever so eloquently and perhaps in Latin) upon me because of this post, but no forum infringement was intended.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Was Judas part of God's plan?
Post #23SallyF wrote:
The role of Judas in the magic-filled propaganda makes not a scrap of difference to the mythology of the possibly fictional Jesus character as "Redeemer and Saviour"
Perhaps you underestimate the sympathy vote. Bad Judas, loved by the Lord, betrayed him for an undisclosed sum - oops it was disclosed by somebody somewhere. Of course we would not have Michelangelo's lovely Pieta had Jesus disclosed exactly who he was, with proof. Threatening several squadrons of angels wasn't the brightest defence, especially if they were otherwise engaged. Judas is an important part in the sad solemnity surrounding the crucifixion of a blasphemer.
To be fair to Jesus he didn't invent Christian theology. Lots of it came from Paul's first novel. The Church picked up choice morsels, and that stood for centuries. Then a hundred others wanted their say and this has produced the coat of many colours that is modern Christianity. Judas is in there somewhere.SallyF wrote:
But billions of credulous souls have been brainwashed by the Minister for Propaganda's tall tales.
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Re: Was Judas part of God's plan?
Post #24Judas could have repented. All the apostles abandoned Jesus.marco wrote: In one theological line Christ was sent by God to die for the sins of mankind. Bizarre though this is, let us accept that God's plan was for Jesus to die and then rise again. Had everyone accepted Jesus, they would have thwarted God's plan. Instead of curing a blind man or casting out devils or producing wine, had Christ channelled his miraculous energies into something so spectacular and beyond discussion and argument that Rome would have heard and bowed, then God's plan would have been ruined. Part of the divine plan seems to have been doubt and ambiguity.
But what part did Judas play? He was used as an instrument of betrayal; was it beyond Christ to prevent the suicide of Judas, if he had been so close to the man? We must then accept that Jesus is largely responsible for the preventable death of his friend.
Does the role of Judas cast doubt on the whole theology of Christ as redeemer and saviour?
Jesus as God is responsible. God accepts our free willed decisions to live apart from God. Love does not force.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Was Judas part of God's plan?
Post #25Indeed …!marco wrote:SallyF wrote:
The role of Judas in the magic-filled propaganda makes not a scrap of difference to the mythology of the possibly fictional Jesus character as "Redeemer and Saviour"
Perhaps you underestimate the sympathy vote. Bad Judas, loved by the Lord, betrayed him for an undisclosed sum - oops it was disclosed by somebody somewhere. Of course we would not have Michelangelo's lovely Pieta had Jesus disclosed exactly who he was, with proof. Threatening several squadrons of angels wasn't the brightest defence, especially if they were otherwise engaged. Judas is an important part in the sad solemnity surrounding the crucifixion of a blasphemer.
To be fair to Jesus he didn't invent Christian theology. Lots of it came from Paul's first novel. The Church picked up choice morsels, and that stood for centuries. Then a hundred others wanted their say and this has produced the coat of many colours that is modern Christianity. Judas is in there somewhere.SallyF wrote:
But billions of credulous souls have been brainwashed by the Minister for Propaganda's tall tales.
And I must remember here that we are pretending the whole "redeemer" business was the original Divine Plan and not an excuse dreamed up by later propagandists.
That being said …
YES the sympathy vote has had a MOST powerful effect on billions of psyches over the centuries.
And the name "Judas" is synonymous with betrayal in common parlance, and needs no explanation.
And "30 pieces of silver" is all that needs to be thrown about to evoke the same emotional response folks have towards the betrayal of Jesus.
So yes, in the Pretend scenario we have here, including the unfortunate Judas patsy in the Divine Plan at the "How Do We Settle Jehovah Down Again" committee meeting in Heaven, was a brilliant move …!
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
Re: Was Judas part of God's plan?
Post #26JehovahsWitness wrote:Guilty of what? Certainly not guilty of blasphemy if that is what you are referring to. There is nothing he said or did that even came close to his being blasphemous.marco wrote:
.... Jesus was unfortunately a guilty man..
In your modern view this may be so but the people who listened to him and were willing to stone him had a different view. They were there; you were not and it is their opinion that justifies the charge of blasphemy. John tells us -
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
This has the semblance of downgrading Abraham, and with the emotive use of "I am" it suggests Jesus is placing himself on a par with God. Many people believe this today, but I guess you do not accept that blasphemous interpretation. Sadly, his listeners did, which is all that matters.
Re: Was Judas part of God's plan?
Post #27Laughter is sometimes called the best medicine which, like music, can soothe the savage breast. I am prilvileged to have dispensed some merriment.JehovahsWitness wrote:It's not often someone makes me laugh out loud on this forum, and as you may have picked up I'm not taking kindly to all this blasphemy against my Lord, but that comment did make me laugh. I don't agree with you (there's a surprise) but it did lighten my mood.marco wrote:
The guilty party in all this is Jesus, for letting Judas commit suicide...
Jesus had an inkling of what Judas thought and was able to prevent his actions, if he wanted to. He chose to allow his friend to continue with his misconceeption, if misconception it was.
The reality is probably this. Judas was hard-headed and astute enough to read behind Christ's stories and came to see him as an imposter, possibly influenced by Christ's family. Sentimental details have been added to make the tale complete.
I'm fully aware of the personal abuse that will probably be heaped (ever so eloquently and perhaps in Latin) upon me because of this post, but no forum infringement was intended.
You have infringed no rule and I have seen no reason to feel offended -pleased perhaps. I must in future provide a translation for any Latin I use, lest its subjunctives and puzzling conditionals be taken as opprobrious. Pax sit tecum - may you have peace.
Re: Was Judas part of God's plan?
Post #28Wootah wrote:
Judas could have repented. All the apostles abandoned Jesus.
Jesus as God is responsible. God accepts our free willed decisions to live apart from God. Love does not force.
The point is that Judas was a mere pawn in the plan to have Christ die and return. That he felt intense remorse must make us pity him and the role he was given. When plans were being made for Christ's stay on earth it was already decided Christ would NOT defend himself, that Judas would betray, repent and hang himself. It has the design of a Greek drama where tragedy stalks everywhere and it strikes me as a human composition rather than divine.
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Re: Was Judas part of God's plan?
Post #29DID JUDAS BETRAY JESUS FOR LACK OF EVIDENCE OF HIS [JESUS'] MESSIAHSHIP?

marco wrote: Judas ... read behind Christ's stories and came to see him as an imposter...

- If the gospels accounts are to be believed, Judas was an Apostle and the Apostles were eye-witnesses of many of Jesus miracles. They saw him calm a violent storm with a word, tell a paralegic to get up and walk, gave sight to a man born blind, heal a man 40 years, crippled, feed thousands with a few loaves of bread, heal lepers with just a touch, cure hundreds that travelled from all over the country for his help, walk on water and even raise the dead.
Biblically, he had ample empirical, verifiable first hand evidence that Jesus was exactly who he claimed to be, the promised Messiah. Judas didn't have to rely on stories, he just had to believe his own eyes.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Was Judas part of God's plan?
Post #30And the fact that an eye witness did not believe causes me to question the reports. He saw - the reporters did not.JehovahsWitness wrote:
- If the gospels accounts are to be believed, Jud
Biblically, he had ample empirical, verifiable first hand evidence that Jesus was exactly who he claimed to be, the promised Messiah. Judas didn't have to rely on stories, he just had to believe his own eyes.
His remorse was in handing over someone he thought was a friend, since he'd become persuaded he was a blasphemer. He was placed in an unenviable position.