God's violent ways

[OnceConvinced]

The god of the bible tends do deal with sin and evil in very violent ways. Ie, wiping out cities, sending floods, ordering violent deaths, ordering the slaying of animals for sacrifices, sending curses and plagues, etc.

Can you point out any instances in the bible where God deals with sin and evil in non-violent ways?

And I mean God here. Not Jesus.
And there are times God showed mercy and didn't deal with the sin and evil, sure. But when he did, were there non-violent methods used?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 168 by JehovahsWitness]

I will explain as simply as possible.
On some military flight-lines, there are actually lines you can cross where you can be shot for crossing.

If you were to deliberately step over that line, you risk being shot.

If you commit blasphemy, as Jesus did, you know claiming to be the son of God, advocating paying a tax to a pagan government, then one should expect to be killed by the Jews whom have death as the penalty for these sins.

Clear enough?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 168 by JehovahsWitness]

And the fireman could have prevented his death by either not going into the building in the first place or turning on his heel and abandoning those trapped in it at any moment up to his death. Being able to prevent ones death is nowhere in the definition of suicide.

Exactly.


One thing that some seem to be overlooking (or do not know about): Christ prayed IF POSSIBLE that the cup be taken away from Him. If NOT POSSIBLE, then His Father's will be done.

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will. Matt 26:39

He went away a second time and prayed, My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done. Matt 26:42

He did not want to suffer all that He was about to suffer (including death, and a horrible death at that). If there was any other way, that is what He asked to be done. Since there was not, He did what was needed (to ransom people back from death, and all else that His death and resurrection accomplished).


Just like the fireman who rushes into the building - more so actually. Because Christ would be the fireman who knows he is going to die rushing into the building to save others, but He does it anyway, to save the lives of others in the building.


That is GIVING one's life (for others). That is not TAKING one's life.




Peace again to you, and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[SallyF]

And therein lies the crux of the issue, what was the suicidal act(tion) that demonstrated an intention to provoke or cause his own death? We've already established it isn't placing of oneself in danger, especially if it is with the intention of ensuring the wellbeing of others. And being able to preserve ones life by making alternative decisions is irrelevant (its not a factor in the definition of suicide), so what was the act Jesus performed to provoke his own death?

Trashing Herod the Great's temple.

Even if the Jesus character wasn't related to Jehovah, he would have known that unless the legions of angels arrived to install him as "King of Israel" like his supporters expected, his parades through Jerusalem were suicidal.

Given that Jehovah and his angels are as real as leprechauns and fairies, if the Jesus tales are true in part, he was not only suicidal, he was downright egotistical and clueless.

But - according to the propaganda billions of Christians have been swallowing for centuries - the suicidal sacrifice to mollify the wrathful, genocidal Jehovah was part of the Divine Plan.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

People that ask questions like this are the same ones that also ask where God was when bad things occurs. The are also the ones that ask where was God when events like mass murder happens. They ask questions like will God ever deal with what they perceive as sin. I say they perceive as sin because many times what God views as sin is not what society thinks is sin or moral.

God in his mercy has given men a government to rule over them to punish the evil doer. Rulers have been set over men so for their own protection and well being.

Deuteronomy 16:18 You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.

Government itself was appointed by God so that man could have justice.

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

We are to pray for those that are in authority over us.

First Timothy 2:1-2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.

But what happens if rulers do not lead "peaceful and quiet lives which are not godly and dignified in every way? In many cases God will bring about the destruction of those nation that are not peaceful, quiet, godly and dignified in every way. But even in the destruction of a nation God still shows his mercy, by giving the people time to repent from their sins.

The sins that we are speaking of in the old testament are sin like people sacrificing their babies to the despicable god that people used to worship named Molech. Even at that Abraham did not take possession of the promised land because sin of the Amorites did not reach the point of intervention yet.

Nobody, especially today like have those in authority over them. Especially, when that authority is telling them they are doing something incorrectly.

Another example of God's mercy would be God's dealings with the Pharaoh. The Pharaoh was enslaving the Israelites. I hope we can all agree that slavery is bad. So God sent Moses to ask the Pharaoh to set the Israelites free. If you read the account God asked Pharaoh to let his people go and even gave him signs about the power he was dealing with, but the Pharaoh hardened his heart. We are told that after each of the first 4 plagues the Pharaoh hardened his heart against God. That was the mercy of God. But God is also a God of justice, God decided after the 4 plague that the hammer of Justice was about to fall.

There is no such thing as mercy without justice. Mercy without justice is anarchy. What you are reading in the Bible as violence is the judgment of God. And without the judgment of God man would could not have survived these 4 millenia. We would have killed ourselves in a state of anarchy.

[Clownboat]

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 158 by marco]

The calling of his sheep to him is a confused metaphor. What aspect of sheep is appropriate: their wool or their mutton? A metaphor has meaning if the constituent parts make sense.

That they listen to the voice of their Shepherd and come to Him when He calls them:

(I don't know how to post videos, sorry; if a moderator could fix that for me that would be great).

I like the first video because the analogy is apt in that the sheep respond only to their shepherd's voice. Not to the voice of a stranger. But I particularly like this second one (it did in fact make me tear up just a bit). I don't see any way that the sheep can SEE their shepherd through the mist; they are coming to him because they HEAR his voice calling them to come to Him.

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Sheep are a prey species, and their only defense is to flee. Sheep display an intensely gregarious social instinct that allows them to bond closely to other sheep and preferentially to related flock members. Flock mentality movements protect individuals from predators.
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/behavior ... r-of-sheep

It is no surprise that a religion would encourage its members (victims to some) to be sheep!
Being proud of this sheep mentality causes me to shake my head though. It's like saying, "look how susceptible I am, because being like a sheep is good"!

[Zzyzx]

.

How can it be regardless of who performs the act if it must be the killing of oneself?

Thus, 'suicide by cop' (deliberately and intentionally provoking shooting by law enforcement personnel) isn't suicide?

[Zzyzx]

.

It is no surprise that a religion would encourage its members (victims to some) to be sheep!

Being proud of this sheep mentality causes me to shake my head though. It's like saying, "look how susceptible I am, because being like a sheep is good"!

Perpetrators of various scams go to great effort to convince or coerce people to act like sheep " easily maneuvered / manipulated; gullible; naive; easily duped, etc.

Religions convince or coerce people to WANT to emulate sheep, including being fleeced.

Some people victimized by scams are embarrassed to admit they were gullible sheep and were fleeced. Many religionists are, as you say, PROUD of it

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 172 by EarthScienceguy]

I don't see how any of this addresses the questions I asked. I shall ask them again:

Can you point out any instances in the bible where God deals with sin and evil in non-violent ways?

And I mean God here. Not Jesus.
And there are times God showed mercy and didn't deal with the sin and evil, sure. But when he did, were there non-violent methods used?

Just to be clear (because I'm tired of word games),
Definition of violent:
"using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something."

And using Pharaoh and the slaves being freed is a terrible example. God unleashed all sorts of violence on Egypt until Pharoah did as he was told. I class plagues as violence because it induces great suffering. And the passover was the ultimate act of violence - the mass slaughter of children.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 168 by JehovahsWitness]

And therein lies the crux of the issue, what was the suicidal act(tion) that demonstrated an intention to provoke or cause his own death?

If Jesus had no intention to die then how was his death a sacrifice? It seems like it was an afterthought on the part of the authors to make the unfortunate death of their hoped-for liberator something more significant than it was in reality.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

Maybe I was not clear, so let me say it like this.

The fact that there is not anarchy on the Earth is one of the God's gift's that he gives to every human on this planet.

The "Violent ways" that you say God engages in is His justice which the souls of those who were killed cry out for. Imagine in this country if murders were left on the streets. They are not once they are caught so they will not kill again. If you do not think this is a good thing just spend a few days in a maximum security prison for a few days.

But what if there were whole nations that were killing the innocent in their countries. Who will stand up for the innocent then? God did. He brought judgment on these groups of people that were violating the rights of innocent. Defending the innocent is an act of mercy.

This whole view that God is violent is predicated on the view that the people that these people groups were innocent of any wrongdoing when in fact they had killed thousands. What kind of anarchy would have taken place if God did not punish the evil doer?

The very issue that you sight as evidence that is suppose to validate your claim of how violent God is does nothing but point to the mercy of God on those that these murderous people killed.

God is the Great judge and He will judge all the evil doers. But it the judgement on these evil doers that makes this world a bearable place to live. Whenever the innocent are being exploited and harmed, you can be assured that God's time clock is ticking and at His appointed time He will bring judgment.

Proverbs 11:21 "Be assured, an evil person will not go unpunished, but the offspring of the righteous will be delivered."