Detailing Biblical Creation Mythology

[SallyF]

My Sunday school teachers and Bible class instructors used to quite happily go through the details of how "God" created the universe and everything in it.

I have noticed, in more recent years, that folks who still call themselves Christian avoid discussing the details of the two biblical creation mythologies.

They will go ON and On at length about the science of evolution, but not a squeak on the details in the "Word of God".

When Christians do not discuss the details of biblical creation, why would that be ?

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 67 by benchwarmer]

Light is a very interesting subject. In my studies I found that light is only a beam unless it is reflected. I think the waters on the face of the Deep verse is in reference to God using the waters/mist to reflect light. For instance our earth has a sorta bio dome around it, the light we receive brightens the earth because of the moisture in our atmosphere. If you notice, in space its much darker just outside our atmosphere.

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Have you ever looked up at the moon? Notice how it is all lit, yet it has no atmosphere and thus no moisture.

The reason space seems 'dark' is because at points in space where there is no object there is nothing reflecting light. If you ever watch space walks from the international space station you will see that light works just fine outside the atmosphere and the astronauts and space station are lit up extremely brightly on the side that faces the sun. In fact there is more direct exposure to the sun as there is no atmosphere to scatter/reflect any light from hitting them.

Now, none of this answered my question. Which came first, water or light? In fact, this passage in Genesis is claiming that the earth itself was formed first and it was 'formless and void' whatever the heck that even means. Apparently it had water on it though given the reference to 'face of the deep'.

I suggest some research into star and planet formation. Essentially what this Genesis tale is claiming is that the earth was poofed into existence first, then the sun (and all other stars). Feel free to reference scientific data that supports that position.

Thanks for the welcome....I have prostrate surgery in about a month, so all prayer and good wishes are welcomed.

All the best of luck with your surgery.

[rondonmonson]

[Replying to benchwarmer]

You will have to do your own studies on this. Its not that light can't be seen elsewhere, its the fact that our atmosphere was crated to make the light more advantageous to our situation. I have read all about it, but I am not going to go into huge details here. Lets just suffice it to say that light must be reflected or its just a straight beam. Our atmosphere reflects this via the water in the air, this is just factual. Water is not the only thing that can reflect light however. You are taking the overall point of how God gave us our light, and then saying it can only be that way throughout the universe, I never stated that. Light must be reflected, different things are capable of reflecting light, some things reflect light much better than other things. God used water to do this, IMHO, in our atmosphere. That is my understanding.

The light came 400 million years after God started the universes creation point. I think I know what you point is. How can the waters be here when there is no light. Well it can't, but that is not God's point. Just like where God says in verse 1 God created the Heavens AND THE EARTH, but then in verse 2 God says the Earth was Void {not in existence} and Darkness was on the face of the deep. God created it by speaking it into existence, the Universe thus started forming, but it took like 9.2 billion years before the earth formed, but God gave the commandment to be created/form in the very Beginning, thus verse one denotes the Universe and Earth as being created in verse 1, via God's command.

As per the water, I thing God is speaking of Water not on earth, THE LIGHT came from the Stars, of which there is trillions, so Light was around long before our sun, so I think God is speaking of the ways he chose to spread the light throughout the universe, through refraction. Water in essence is a gas or vapor, it doesn't have to be a body lying somewhere. I think God is speaking of it in these terms, in my opinion. Of course the earth could never be here before the Sun, that is the nebulous that created this universe, a ball of gas. Then and only then can the earth be held into its orbit.

Thanks for the well wishes friendo.

P.S. I don't have all the answers, I just think we are to entrenched into positions, free thinkers like Einstein saw both sides, he believed in Science and understood there had to be a Creator, even though he didn't think it was the God of the bible for other reasons.

[rondonmonson]

[Replying to post 80 by Tcg]

I stick by my point. Men are recorders of history, we have records going back about 6000 or so years. Animals carve things, some use tools to hunt with or open things with etc. etc. But none of them have the moral compass God gave man, the see killing another animal to eat as survival. We see it as murder.

A Man'like animal might very well have been much smarter than apes/primates, but still was not a Human being with God's imparted spirit. God says he created Adam and Eve in His Image, that is a game changer. We became like unto God by becoming immortal and we became wise, when we disobeyed God our eyes were then opened unto both Good and Evil.

No man can gain Evidence of God {besides what is evident, the way Creation is evident, the design of all creation, the DNA being a computer like code in our bodies etc. etc.} until he comes unto God first by Faith. God so desires it that way. He wants us to DESIRE to be like Him, not to see God as a slave driving God who demands allegiance.

God knows sin leads to death, evil would wipe out humanity, its why Demons are destined for eternal darkness. Thus even though he gives free will, He can only have in Heaven, those who love His ways, which are holy and just, if people love evil, there is no place in heaven for that evil.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 83 by rondonmonson]


You have presented a non-standard definition of human. It seems that your theory depends on doing so. There is clear evidence that contradicts your point concerning the creation of humans. Humans existed long before 6,000 years ago.

Given that you are hesitant to present verifiable evidence to support your theory, there is little related to the topic of this thread left to discuss.


Tcg

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Difflugia]

So you would like to discuss creation science I can do that.

One the reasons that creationist talk about the deficiencies in naturalistic theory is because a theories strength is based on how well it can explain observations.

1st. Whatever created the universe had to exist before the universe existed and must be uncaused.

The Bible tells us that God existed before the creation of the world.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

John 17:24: "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world."

The Bible also tells us that God is unchanging

Malachi 3:6: "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8: "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

James 1:17: Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

God can only be unchanging in one way and that is if all of time in the present to Him. In other words every moment of time and every place in time God is present. Another way to think of this is that God experiences every moment of time at the same time.

Some ask the question who created God. If God is unchanging in His nature then there is no way that He can be a created being.

There is a logical fallacy in thinking that anything could be created before the creation of the universe because time did not exist before the universe. There was no tick tock of time before the universe began.

So God does possess the elements needed to create the universe. He existed before time, and He has always existed.

2nd A second problem with naturalistic creation in which creationism answers is why does the universe have the laws and constants that it does to support life.

He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit Psalm 147:4-5.

Colossians 1:16 "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities"all things were created through him and for him."

The universe was constructed.

An ordered creation of the universe is also the only solution to create a universe in which each individual person in real. Entropy makes an unplanned universe impossible to have individual entities with their own will.

God's plan was to redeem a group from the individual entities that He created as a gift for the Son. This was the reason God created the universe in which we find ourselves.

3rd. Another problem that naturalistic theory cannot but creation theory can is the reason why the universe is so flat.

According to the Bible the universe started as a ball of water. If creation scientist Russel Humphreys is correct that ball of water as about 20 times the mass of our current universe. In Genesis 1:5 God separated the waters, according to Humphrey's theory that means that most of the water that was at creation is beyond the edge of our universe, and it is this large mass of water that makes our universe so flat.

4th Another problem that naturalistic theory cannot explain is the horizon problem. Why is the cosmic background radiation so smooth? To put this into perspective a glass of water has more variation in temperature than the cosmic background radiation does, so a random energetic expanse of energy does not fit this observation.

Dr. Humphreys and creation theorist take a different view of the structure of the universe. They theorize a universe with six dimensions. The four that we experience and 2 other dimensions in which our universe moves in a circular motion in. This means that our 3 dimensional universe is under constant acceleration and it is this constant acceleration that causes the smooth background radiation.

This is why when you are comparing any two theories you look at how each theory explains the observations. Creation theory does a much better job at explaining things we observe in nature.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 84 by Tcg]

Time is always brought up in discussions like this so let's talk time.

You say that humans were on this Earth long before 6000 years ago. What are basing that claim on? Carbon 14 Dating maybe, I would say probably.

Some may say tree rings like Bill Nye does in his debates but trees can produce more than one ring per year and the oldest tree is 4.8 K.

But more than likely if you are trying to date humans Carbon 14 dating is what you are using. To date something using the carbon 14 method there are two values that you need to know.

1. How fast does 14C decay?
2. What was the starting amount of 14C in the creature when it died?

The decay rate of 14-C is well establish. What is not well established is the starting amount of 14-C. The way the starting point of 14-C is determined is by using the ratio of 14-C to 12-C and this ratio has assumed to be true for billions of years because is assumed that the atmosphere has reached equilibrium but it does not appear that equilibrium yet. The Specific Production Rate (SPR) of C-14 is known to be 18.8 atoms per gram of total carbon per minute. The Specific Decay Rate (SDR) is known to be only 16.1 disintegrations per gram per minute, it it takes 30 K years to reach equilibrium then the earth has to be less than 30 K years.

A second problem is amount of 14-C that is free for plants to absorb can change depending how how much vegetation there is on the planet. The fossil record shows that there Earth used to support much more plant life than it does today, so therefore the amount of 14-C available for plant absorption was much less. Making the organic matter appear much older than it really is.

A third problem is a decreasing magnetic field. If the magnetic field is decreasing like we see today, more 14-C would be produced. This would mean the assumption that todays ratio is the same as what it was in the past would be wrong.

What are you basing assertion that humans are older than 6k years on.

[Difflugia]

So you would like to discuss creation science I can do that.

Sure. I'll bite.

One the reasons that creationist talk about the deficiencies in naturalistic theory is because a theories strength is based on how well it can explain observations.

I might think that to be true if the deficiencies were real ones.

1st. Whatever created the universe had to exist before the universe existed and must be uncaused.

The Bible tells us that God existed before the creation of the world.

According to modern cosmology, there is no such thing as "before" the Big Bang. Time and space came into existence simultaneously. More accurately, we can't actually know what happened prior to the first tiny fraction of a second prior to the initial expansion because that's when the laws of physics began to apply. Since time is a property of the Universe and "before" means earlier in time, "before the Universe began to exist" is nonsense.

[Bible verses]

God can only be unchanging in one way and that is if all of time in the present to Him. In other words every moment of time and every place in time God is present. Another way to think of this is that God experiences every moment of time at the same time.

Some ask the question who created God. If God is unchanging in His nature then there is no way that He can be a created being.

God's not real.

There is a logical fallacy in thinking that anything could be created before the creation of the universe because time did not exist before the universe. There was no tick tock of time before the universe began.

That what I just said.

So God does possess the elements needed to create the universe. He existed before time, and He has always existed.

God's not real.

2nd A second problem with naturalistic creation in which creationism answers is why does the universe have the laws and constants that it does to support life.

So, what's the problem and how does creationism solve it?

[Bible verses]

The universe was constructed.

An ordered creation of the universe is also the only solution to create a universe in which each individual person in real. Entropy makes an unplanned universe impossible to have individual entities with their own will.

Do you have a source for this assertion? Neuroscientists and psychologists still discuss whether free will is real or an illusion. Since I'm pretty sure that most behavioral scientists know what entropy is, if this were a valid argument, then I think the discussion would be over.

3rd. Another problem that naturalistic theory cannot but creation theory can is the reason why the universe is so flat.

Perhaps you can find me a source that explains what this means. I don't know and I'm not going to try to guess.

According to the Bible the universe started as a ball of water.

Not a ball. You're inferring that based on your own knowledge of the Universe. "The spirit of God was brooding upon the face of Deep" is what it says.

I wrote "Deep" there in Genesis 1:2 as a name. The word in Hebrew is "Tehom" without a definite article, so "the face of the deep" isn't quite correct. Contextually, the meaning could be that there are multiple "depths" and the spirit is brooding over one of them. In English, we would use an indefinite article (which Hebrew doesn't have) and it would be "the spirit is brooding upon a depth." The other possibility (that I think is the correct one) is that "Tehom" is a name, referring to Tiamat, a dragon that embodies Chaos in a Babylonian creation myth. If translated rather than transliterated, it would be rendered as "Deep." I think that sounds cooler, anyway.

The theological implication that I think was intended is that God formed the Earth from "Tehom" without needing to battle Her. In the Babylonian myth, Marduk (order) battled Tiamat (chaos) and the result was the Earth with its balance of order and chaos. God, the author of Genesis 1 was saying, was completely in charge of all. There was no push-pull, no conflict, all was according to God's will.

Or it could mean "giant ball of water," I guess. Theology's sometimes tricky.

If creation scientist Russel Humphreys is correct

He's probably not.

that ball of water as about 20 times the mass of our current universe.

Please show your (or Humphreys') work.

4th Another problem that naturalistic theory cannot explain is the horizon problem.

Your creationist sources are outdated. The "horizon problem" is solved by inflation.

Why is the cosmic background radiation so smooth?

Not smooth.

To put this into perspective a glass of water has more variation in temperature than the cosmic background radiation does, so a random energetic expanse of energy does not fit this observation.

Which Bible verse explains why and how God made the CMB such that it's not quite uniform (but more uniform than a glass of water) similar to what one might expect if there was a faster-than-light expansion of the inflationary horizon coupled with quantum fluctuations?

Dr. Humphreys and creation theorist take a different view of the structure of the universe.

They sure do.

They theorize a universe with six dimensions. The four that we experience and 2 other dimensions in which our universe moves in a circular motion in. This means that our 3 dimensional universe is under constant acceleration and it is this constant acceleration that causes the smooth background radiation.

Is there a Bible verse that explains why God would do that?

This is why when you are comparing any two theories you look at how each theory explains the observations. Creation theory does a much better job at explaining things we observe in nature.

You do realize that the crux of "creation theory" is just to say that God can do anything, right? That doesn't actually explain anything. It's like asking how Superman flies and the answer is that he's Superman.

[Zzyzx]

.

What are you basing assertion that humans are older than 6k years on.

It is indeed fortunate that we have Theists keeping a rein on science -- as their predecessors did during the Dark and Middle Ages.

They have all the right answers after reading ancient texts written by people who didn't know where the sun went at night -- so they are qualified to critique professional scientific studies based on their theology.

Of course they reject modern science -- medicine, communication, transportation, food production and distribution -- and live in their world controlled by invisible, undetectable 'gods'.

In reality, the 'critics of science' take advantage of all that science provides -- then condemn it when it contradicts their favorite Bible tales and church dogma.

[Danmark]

There is little point in using science, facts, direct empirical observation or any other form of rationality when arguing science to those who believe a single Hadith, or verse from the Quo-ran, or Bible is more convincing than 200 years of scientific observation.

[Zzyzx]

.

There is little point in using science, facts, direct empirical observation or any other form of rationality when arguing science to those who believe a single Hadith, or verse from the Quo-ran, or Bible is more convincing than 200 years of scientific observation.

Agree 100%

I engage such people only to help them demonstrate to readers the absurdity of their position and beliefs. There are over a thousand views of this thread alone. I trust that many readers are not gullible or naive enough to be convinced by emotional appeals based on ancient tales (excepting, of course, those who are so thoroughly indoctrinated that their thinking is constricted and confined to theistic claims and tales)