Is slavery a sin?

[Elijah John]

For debate:

1) Is slavery a sin?
2) Has slavery always been a sin?
3) Does slavery harmonize with the Golden Rule?
4) How would you like to be kept as a slave? (related to question # 3)
5) Was slavery OK because it was practiced in Bible times, and the Law of Moses sanctioned and regulated it?
6) Does any amount of regulation make slavery OK? Or is slavery an inherently irredeemable institution?
7) Paul said "anything not of faith is sin". Is slavery "of faith"?
8) Is the Bible's seeming approval of slavery as an institution evidence of a Bible flaw?

Please address any combination of these debate questions.

[marco]

I can see you don't agree with the Law that God gave Moses ... cause He did; and when you are saying that what God said to Moses was wrong you are doing this:

Job 40: 8 Really, will you invalidate my justice?
Will you pronounce me wicked in order that you may be in the right?

... no more no less. I can not help about that.

When we subjugate our reason and common sense to what we think is God's injunction, we lose our civilised status. When Exodus tells us about a slave who has been battered: "But if the servant lives on for a day or two, the offender shall not be punished, for he has injured his own property" we should feel repugnance. Similarly if God suggests errant daughters should be stoned by men, we must react against this barbarity. Such a "god" is unworthy of our respect.

Because of this dilemma of accepting absurdities, many have moved away from Yahweh, and become perhaps better people, even though slaveless.

Is slavery a sin against God? Apparently not. Is it wrong? Yes.

[OnceConvinced]

This becomes a little tougher to debate when it's in the TD&D subforum as we have to go by what the bible says about it. I can't really voice my own personal opinions on it.

1) Is slavery a sin?
Not according to the bible. There are no laws agianst owning people and in the NT Paul tells slaves they must obey their masters.


2) Has slavery always been a sin?
No. As far as I can see in the bible there is no where it says its a sin.

3) Does slavery harmonize with the Golden Rule?
No. Definitely not. If you don't want to be owned by someone then don't own other people. Even if it comes to indentured servitude I would not want to have to work for someone like a slave to pay off a debt. I would want to find a better way to pay that debt off without being owned. Or even better have it forgiven me.

And here's the scripture that quite obviously shows us slavery and indentured servitude are two entirely different things:

Leviticus 25:39 "And if your brother becomes poor beside you, and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: he shall be with you as a hired servant and as a sojourner."

4) How would you like to be kept as a slave? (related to question # 3)
I would hate it. I would even hate to be an indentured servant. Any role where I am forced into servitude and have no freedom would be horrific. Even if it were to pay off a debt. My freedom is very important to me.


5) Was slavery OK because it was practiced in Bible times, and the Law of Moses sanctioned and regulated it?

Well according to the bible it was okay and you could even beat your slave as long as he didn't die within a couple of days. So according to God, yes, it's fine. He definitely doesn't say not to do it.


6) Does any amount of regulation make slavery OK? Or is slavery an inherently irredeemable institution?
Well the problem is if I were to give my personal opinion, I'd say no, it's never okay and indentured servitude is immoral too, but the fact that the bible regulates this practise means that God indorsed it. After all, he is a "my way or the highway" type of guy. If he doesn't like something he doesn't pander to humans. He just straight out tells you not to do it and will make you suffer if you do.

7) Paul said "anything not of faith is sin". Is slavery "of faith"?
I don't get that.


8) Is the Bible's seeming approval of slavery as an institution evidence of a Bible flaw?
Well from my own opinion yes, but this is the TD&D subforum so as such the bible has authority. So that means the word of God would be flawed.

Well okay, if you insist!

[OnceConvinced]

Ironic that the same God who had just liberated His people from slavery in Egypt would then go and condone His people enslaving others. But did He? Or do these commandments and regulations have their origin in the primitive barbarity of Moses himself?

"If one of your brothers, a Hebrew man or woman, is sold to you and has served you for six years, then in the seventh year you should set him free. And if you should set him free, do not send him away empty-handed. You should supply him generously with something from your flock, your threshing floor, and your press for oil and wine. Just as Jehovah your God has blessed you, you should give to him. Remember that you became a slave in the land of Egypt and that Jehovah your God redeemed you. That is why I am commanding you to do this today." Deut 15:12-15

How many slaves do you know get sent away with generous supplies?

Seriously folks please read the Bible and dump the preconceived notion that the European slave trade was anything like in Israel. Please look these things up and humble yourselves to not be afraid to accept that things were just not what you think they were. If you have something to contrary that God didn't speak the above things to Moses then present what He did say. Otherwise you have not God's word but only your own which carries zero authority.

WeSee has already pointed out that what you have quoted here relates to only Hebrews. Foreigners were not given these privileges.

But even so, it's surely immoral, don't you think? To take someone's freedom away for money? Treat them like your property until they've worked off their debt? No freedom?

Would you be willing to go through something like that?

And no, don't even bring up people doing jobs and paying taxes. I work full time and pay taxes, but when I'm not at work I can do anything and go anwhere I like. I can even quit my job if I want. I don't owe them money. I'm nothing like an indentured servant.

[onewithhim]

Ironic that the same God who had just liberated His people from slavery in Egypt would then go and condone His people enslaving others. But did He? Or do these commandments and regulations have their origin in the primitive barbarity of Moses himself?

I thought post #4 explained "slavery" pretty well. It certainly wasn't like what we associate with the word "slavery" today. Did you happen to read that post?

[OnceConvinced]

I thought post #4 explained "slavery" pretty well. It certainly wasn't like what we associate with the word "slavery" today.

Of course not. If we beat and killed someone today we wouldn't be able to get away with the excuse that it took them 2 days to die.

Re: your lists of scriptures.

You guys really need to go through with a fine tooth comb and see which ones relate to foreign slaves and which ones relate to fellow Hebrew.

And don't exclude the verses you don't like.

This link may help:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Bible

[WeSee]

[Replying to post 16 by 2timothy316]

See posts 7 and 10.

Are you familiar of how most nations around Israel treated slaves? Also do you know why foreigners like Ruth were allowed to be slaves for life?

Are you familiar of how most nations around Israel treated slaves? Also do you know why foreigners like Ruth were allowed to be slaves for life?
Following is a definition of the red herring fallacy from logicallyfallacious.com since you are evidently unaware of it:

Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.

Following are the points from earlier posts. :

One thing that needs to be understood is that in ancient biblical times, slavery was basically broken into two groups.
1) Hebrews that were indentured servants.
2) Non-Hebrews that were permanent slaves and were considered property.

The Antebellum period in the US also had indentured servitude which was likewise nothing like chattel slavery.

Those who try to defend slavery often try to cite "protections" given to the slaves of that period. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of those protections only applied to indentured servants. Defenders of slavery often disingenuously attribute them to chattel slaves as well.

The reality is that what God did in the following is expressly give permission to OWN non-Hebrew chattel slaves. This is not merely a case of "not eliminating it" or of "regulating it". The following is God expressly condoning chattel slavery:
Leviticus 25
44“ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life...

There is no reasonable defense for this.

The following describes the rules governing Hebrew indentured servitude:
Leviticus 25
39 “ ‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.41Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
47“ ‘If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to a member of the foreigner’s clan, 48they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them: 49An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves. 50They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired worker for that number of years. 51If many years remain, they must pay for their redemption a larger share of the price paid for them. 52If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they are to compute that and pay for their redemption accordingly. 53They are to be treated as workers hired from year to year; you must see to it that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.
54“ ‘Even if someone is not redeemed in any of these ways, they and their children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

The above "regulations" only apply to Hebrew indentured servants. For the non-Hebrew chattel slaves the "regulations" were few to none.

Neither of your questions address the above. Both of your questions are a "deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument". Both of your questions are red herrings.

[Topaz27]

For anyone who's defending the Bible's view on slavery/servitude. Please read the Bible's rules on slavery, all of Exodus 21 is a great place to start. Then if you still think what the Bible says is ok, are you willing to become my servant?

I am patiently waiting your responses.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 26 by WeSee]

If you don't know the answer to my questions then you don't know the history of slavery in ancient Israel, making your arguments invalid as you only are arguing what your THINK you know but really don't know anything about it. I can't debate with someone that is uneducated in the subject, that truly is a red herring, as you will not debate the real questions but you will debate on the incomplete knowledge you have. Some of your understanding is completely false at that.

[2timothy316]

For anyone who's defending the Bible's view on slavery/servitude. Please read the Bible's rules on slavery, all of Exodus 21 is a great place to start. Then if you still think what the Bible says is ok, are you willing to become my servant?

I am patiently waiting your responses.

If I was living in days of ancient Israel and it was during a time that Israel was actually following the law of God I'd be a slave. Especially if I came from another land. For example those that served Moloch slavery started young. Many became sex slaves at the temple. Both girls and boys. No way that was allowed in Israel. Israel would protect it's slaves, yes like their own property under assault.

[2timothy316]

And no, don't even bring up people doing jobs and paying taxes. I work full time and pay taxes, but when I'm not at work I can do anything and go anwhere I like. I can even quit my job if I want. I don't owe them money. I'm nothing like an indentured servant.

And you think there were options like that back then? The United States didn't exist back then. Do you think that healthcare existed? Welfare? Did you know that the only place close to that back then was Israel?

Please, tell us what a week as a foreign slave in Israel was like and don't forget to give your references to backup your story.

Folks, please examine the history of the world before making comparisons to how you live today. What you have today is not what was available back then. There was no getting fired at McDonald's and just going to Burger King to get another job.