Lets agree that Jesus was a historical figure who was put to death by the Romans for insurrection. That is claiming to be the Messiah, the King of the Jews.
The year was approximately 33 A.D.
Then there is the story that he was raised from the dead three days after his crucifixion.
Who witnessed that?
How much of the Jesus NT story really happened
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Tcg
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Post #3
That's quite a claim. It of course side steps the question of the OP. The question is who witnessed that, not who knew someone who claimed to witness it.Eloi wrote: All his followers in the first century witnessed all that or knew someone who did.
The question, "Who witnessed that?", remains unanswered
Tcg
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Re: How much of the Jesus NT story really happened
Post #4According to the original ending of Mark: nobody.polonius wrote:Then there is the story that he was raised from the dead three days after his crucifixion.
Who witnessed that?
According to the longer ending of Mark: Mary Magdalene and the Eleven.
According to Matthew: both Marys and the Eleven.
According to Luke and Acts: Cleopas, somebody else, and the Eleven (but the Marys didn't).
According to John: Mary Magdalene and the Twelve.
According to Paul (1 Cor 15): Cephas, the Twelve, five hundred assorted brethren, James, the apostles, and Paul.
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Eloi
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Post #5
[Replying to Tcg]
Since nobody after the second century can tell you he saw what evangelists say, nothing will be enough for you. I guess for you all history recorded in old documents is just the same thing. You trust in who you want to ... everybody does.
Luk. 1:1 Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent The·ophʹi·lus, 4 so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.
Since nobody after the second century can tell you he saw what evangelists say, nothing will be enough for you. I guess for you all history recorded in old documents is just the same thing. You trust in who you want to ... everybody does.
Luk. 1:1 Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent The·ophʹi·lus, 4 so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.
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Tcg
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Post #6
Why are you attempting to make this issue about me? The issue I addressed was your claim. If you choose not to support it, I certainly don't bare the blame.Eloi wrote: [Replying to Tcg]
Since nobody after the second century can tell you he saw what evangelists say, nothing will be enough for you. I guess for you all history recorded in old documents is just the same thing. You trust in who you want to ... everybody does.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Eloi
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Post #7
Everybody trust in who they want. I say "you" cause I am answering to you.
The Bible did not fall from heaven; it was writen by men, so every man can understand ... It says what it says, so it is you who are calling "claims" what Bible says.
John 15:27 and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
... 20:30 To be sure, Jesus also performed many other signs before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. 31 But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.
1 Pet. 5:1 Therefore, as a fellow elder, a witness of the sufferings of the Christ and a sharer of the glory that is to be revealed, I make this appeal to the elders among you
2 Pet. 1:16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we made known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather, we were eyewitnesses of his magnificence.
Acts 10:38 about Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake. 40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.�
Even Jews knew everything about Jesus. They never have negated his miracles, even if they considered him an enemy.
Do you have any REAL REASON for not believing in the biblical writers? It would be interesting if anyone can give one.
The Bible did not fall from heaven; it was writen by men, so every man can understand ... It says what it says, so it is you who are calling "claims" what Bible says.
John 15:27 and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
... 20:30 To be sure, Jesus also performed many other signs before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. 31 But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.
1 Pet. 5:1 Therefore, as a fellow elder, a witness of the sufferings of the Christ and a sharer of the glory that is to be revealed, I make this appeal to the elders among you
2 Pet. 1:16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we made known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather, we were eyewitnesses of his magnificence.
Acts 10:38 about Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake. 40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.�
Even Jews knew everything about Jesus. They never have negated his miracles, even if they considered him an enemy.
Do you have any REAL REASON for not believing in the biblical writers? It would be interesting if anyone can give one.
Last edited by Eloi on Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tcg
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Post #8
No. I referred to your assertion as a claim.Eloi wrote: Everybody trust in who they want. I say "you" cause I am answering to you.
The Bible did not fall from heaven; it was writen by men, so every man can understand ... It says what it says, so it is you who are calling "claims" what Bible says.
How do these four references support your universal claim which was:
John 15:27 and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
... 20:30 To be sure, Jesus also performed many other signs before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. 31 But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.
1 Pet. 5:5 Therefore, as a fellow elder, a witness of the sufferings of the Christ and a sharer of the glory that is to be revealed, I make this appeal to the elders among you
2 Pet. 1:16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we made known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather, we were eyewitnesses of his magnificence.
Acts 10:38 about Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake. 40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.�
- "All his followers in the first century witnessed all that or knew someone who did."
This is nothing but another claim you've provided no support for.Even Jews knew everything about Jesus. They never have negated his miracles, even if they considered him an enemy.
The biblical writers? I addressed your claim.
Do you have any REAL REASON for not believing in the biblical writers? It would be interesting if anyone can give one.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Tcg
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Post #10
You made a universal claim about "all his followers." Now you're discussing, "the biblical writers." That's the only game being played.Eloi wrote: Really? Playing again the same game? How many times do I need now to repeat the passages for you to understand that the biblical writers saw or heard from who saw what they wrote?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
