Healing an amputated leg

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4326
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 195 times

Healing an amputated leg

Post #1

Post by Mithrae »

In July 1637, a 20 year old fellow named Miguel Juan Pellicer was working at his uncle's farm in Castelln, Spain, when a mule-drawn cart ran over and broke his leg. He was taken to a hospital in nearby Valencia for five days, then traveled to Zaragoza in order to receive treatment in the hospital there dedicated to 'Our Lady of the Pillar.' He spent his next two years in Zaragoza as a one-legged beggar, saying that his gangrenous leg had been amputated below the knee when he'd arrived at the hospital.

In March 1640, Pellicer returned to his family home in Calanda, for a few weeks begging around the local villages. On the night of March 29th, Miguel's bed was billeted out to a soldier of the company passing through town, so he slept on a mattress in his parents' room. Passing by as he slept late that evening, Miguel's mother was shocked to see not one but two feet coming out from under his blanket!
  • On April 1, Palm Sunday, Don Marco Seguer, parish priest of Mazalen, a village fifty kilometres away, went to the place of the event, accompanied by the royal notary Miguel Andru, who set up a certificate to express the testimony, confirmed by oath, of ten persons.

    On April 25 Pellicer and his parents went on a pilgrimage to Zaragoza to give thanks to Our Lady of the Pillar, and here too the young man was seen by a great number of people who had known him before with only one leg. Following a request from the city's authority, a formal inquiry was initiated in order to ascertain the veracity of the event. Legal proceedings, presided by the archbishop of the city began on June 5 and took about a year. All hearings were public and no voice of dissent was recorded. Twenty-four witnesses spoke out, selected as the most trustworthy from among the great number of people that knew Pellicer, both from Calanda and from Zaragoza.

    On April 27 of 1641 the archbishop of Zaragoza pronounced a judgment, thereby officially declaring the authenticity of the miracle. At the end of the year Pellicer was also invited to the royal court at Madrid. . . .
    ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda
None of this information above is disputed by any of the sceptical sources I've checked (beyond the usual knee-jerk 'he didn't exist' assumptions from random forum-folk). Documentary evidence confirms that Miguel Pellicer did exist; he had two legs, then a cart accident; he was widely known as a one-legged beggar for over two years; then he had two legs, the alleged 'miracle' was carefully investigated, and the documentary evidence from those investigations remains available today.

The only part that is seriously disputed is whether the leg was actually amputated in the Zaragoza hospital, because of course that would definitely mean a miracle had occurred.



Investigation and alternative theory

The 'miracle' view of these events was most widely promoted in a book by journalist Vittorio Messori's 2000 book Il Miracolo. The most-cited alternative view of the events - including on Wikipedia - is the one advanced by Brian Dunning of Skeptoid in 2011. Dunning criticizes the official account based on the view that if Pellicer's leg had been gangrenous (the reason for its amputation in the first place), he couldn't possibly have survived a 50-day journey to Zaragoza. Instead, he speculates that rather than going immediately to Zaragoza, Pellicer initially spent some time in Valencia with his broken leg, unable to work and therefore begging for a living. Deciding that he enjoyed the life of a homeless beggar but knowing a broken leg wasn't a permanent excuse, Pellicer traveled to Zaragoza because he was unknown there, and faked an amputated leg by binding it up against his thigh. The gimmick was only discovered when, back home, he had to share a room with his parents.

This view has several problems: For starters there are types of gangrene which could have festered for weeks or even months, consistent with the story. Then, the idea that someone would prefer the life of a homeless beggar to that of a farmer with a roof over his head is an extremely dubious 'motive' to begin with, even before considering the added discomfort of keeping a leg bound up to the thigh. The discovery of the 'regrown' leg poses yet another problem for the theory, because its condition was consistent with a leg replaced using modern techniques - "cold and hard with contracted toes and blue in colour" and "initially a few centimetres shorter due to the loss of bone tissue" according to the Wikipedia article - but not with a leg that was only bound up during the days Pellicer ventured out in the public. (That description may or may not even be consistent with atrophy from constant binding; but if he unbound it at nights, it almost certainly doesn't fit.)

However the most critical problem for the theory is Dunning's false assertions about the available evidence:
"Note that no evidence exists that his leg was ever amputated " or that he was even treated at all " at the hospital in Zaragoza other than his own word. He named three doctors there, but for some reason there is no record of their having been interviewed by either the delegation or the trial."

This is entirely false; in fact the record of testimonies from all three doctors is readily available, along with a hospital Presbyter who'd seen the detached leg.

Thanks to the efforts of 'TheBigManOh' in a 2013 thread on atheistforums.org, I've learned how to find the minutes of the original investigation. According to the Wikipedia article:
"The minutes of the proceedings at Zaragoza. The original document, having been kept in the archives of Zaragoza chapter house, was handed over to a Benedictine monk, Father Lambert, in about 1930, who then took it to France. Unfortunately Lambert was killed in World War II and it is unknown what has become of the manuscript since. However, before it disappeared four printed editions had been published, the first of which in 1829. Two notaries certified that these corresponded exactly with original text."

A scanned version of this 1829 copy is available here. That scanned version has then been passed through some optical character recognition software to produce a text-only version, which can then be passed through Google Translate's heroic attempt to understand it as modern Spanish. Obviously, the results of this process are not ideal, but surprisingly coherent nonetheless.

Pages 43-44
Licentiate Juan de Estanga, Professor of Surgery at the University of the City of Zaragoza, and domiciled there, Surgeon of the General Hospital of her, family member of the Holy Office of the Inquisition of Aragon, aged fifty-one years and a half, and he has forty of good memory, testi-. tigo in the present case cited, produced, presented, sworn and by the oath loaned by him. . . . the depositor tried his cure, and although he They applied many, and different remedies, did not take advantage, because the leg is very phlegmatic Da and damaged;
with which the depositor decided to cut him off, because if it did not seem to die the said Juan Pellicero, and this said to be true per juramentum. The eleventh article of said cedula, being interrogated, replied, and said: That there will be two and a half years, more or less, as he has said, having done the above deliberation the depositor, through his speakers and nurses They cut off a leg to said Juan Pelli- zero four fingers below the knee, which he believes, and he is certainly the same one that has been taught to that depositor, and this he said to be true per juramen- tum. = To the tenth third article, being read he answered, and said: That the depositor continued the cure of this leg for a few months, until he was in state that the clothes could be given to him as is customary to the others , and this said to be true per juramentum. To the fourteenth article of said cedula, when he was read he answered, and said: Many days later, on several occasions, Juan Pellicero said the said Hospital at the time of the cure, and the wound was unwound, and He told the depositor that he was careful to enter the Chapel of the Virgin of the Pillar at the time that the lamps were down, and that he smeared his wound with the oil of said lamps, and that the depositor would scold him because he was doing it. , because the oil was not good for what he wanted, saving the faith of what the Virgin could do, and this said to be true er juramentum. = To the fifteenth article of said cedula, if he was read, he replied, and said: What the deponent knows, that after cutting said leg he walked with a wooden leg helping himself with a crutch; The depositor knows for having seen him several times per jurymenum.
Pages 47-48
Licentiate Pascual del Cacho, Presbyter Vee-
of the Holy Hospital
of Our Lady of Grace of the Present City, of forty-four years of age, more or less, and has thirty of good memory, witness in the present Cause quoted, produced, presented and jury, and by the oath loaned by him, questioned about what is contained in the eleventh article of said cedula, if he was read he answered, and said: That the depositor what can be said of the article is, that there will be two years and seven months, more or less, this depository going through the Stables of said Holy Hospital, taking care of the sustenance of the sick, as this was his job, he saw a young man in a bed in the Cuadra de Ciruja, they had cut off a leg, as he heard him say to Licentiate Juan de Estanga and to other Mencebos who were with him, who had cut him off to that sick, and the depositor saw on the floor the said cut leg, and the sick man. He tried to work with some examples, which he saw was very He then heard the depositor say that said leg was buried, and with this he says, that the said Mozo, to whom as said, they cut the said leg, and the one that has been shown to him, it seems to the depositor is a person himself, and not diverse, because before and after cutting said leg, he has treated him little, and this said to be true per juramentum.
Page 48-49
Juan Lorenzo Garcia, Mancebo Platicante de Cyrjjano, a native of Torralva de los Frailes, and has lived in the present city of Zaragoza for ten years here, aged twenty-two years, more or less, and has the ten of good memory, witness in the present Cause cited, produced, presented, ju-
by the oath taken by him, questioned on what is contained in article ten of said cedula,. being told read, he said: That the depositor, who can say of the article, is, that he has been in the Holy Hospital for four years, and that at the occasion that the article says, the depositor was in the Stable of Surgery. He saw that a patient had been taken from the Cuadra de Alenturas, who seems to him to be the one who has been shown him, whom he does not know by name, only did he see him with a wounded leg, and that in said Cua- Mr. Juan de Estanga sought, in the article named, to apply him, the necessary remedies to cure him, and that seeing they did not take advantage of said remedies. God for putting that leg worse than it was, and saw the depositor, that the saying "Juan de Estanga, and Miguel, Beltran, Surgeons, neighbors of Zaragoza, came together and resolved to cut the leg, and es- To said article be true per juramentum. - To the article eleven, being read read answered, and said: That done the above deliberation, there will be the time that says the article, little more or less, said Juan de Es-o Licenciado Thong, through his Mencebos, the said leg, and the dean saw her cut, and it helped to raise the Cauterios, M, that, the same that has been shown to him and iguel Juan Pellicero, in the article named, is oneself , and not diverse, and this said to be true per jura- mentum. - To the twelfth article he answered, and said: That the depositor is the one who took that leg after being cut off and took it with another companion of his, and having been with her in the Chapel, they took her to bury the Sauto Cimenterio. Hospital, as in fact they buried her, making a hole like a handful of wave, and this said to be true per juramentum. - To the twenty-nine article, being read read him, and said: What refers to what he said because he does not know it before cutting off that leg, and then he has communicated little, and this he said to be true per juramen-a 7
Pages 51-52
Diego Millaruelo, Master in Surgery, domiciled in Zaragoza, aged twenty-nine years old, more or less, has the nineteen nine in good memory, witness in the present case cited, produced, presented, and sworn , by the oath loaned by him, questioned about what is contained in the tenth article of said cedula, if he read it answered, he said: That the depositor knows well the said Miguel uan Pellicero, for what he will say below, and with this he says: It will be two years, more or less, that the depositor going to the Hospital with the Licentiate Juan de Estanga, who was with whom he was talking, to visit the patients of the Cuadra de Ciruga, for whose account the cure of the patients who are in it, he saw in a bed the said Miguel Juan Pellicero with a gangrenous leg, that said Licenciado Juan de Estanga applied the various medications, and seeing they did not take advantage of 2, he saw this depositor , that said Licentiate Juan of this resolved short r said happiness, because he could not find another remedy for the said Juan Pellicero to live; the depositor knows, because, as it is said, he spoke with the said Licentiate Juan de Estanga, and he found himself in that deliberation, and this said true per juramentum.-To article eleven he was read, he answered, and said : Having made the above deliberation, they cut the leg, know it because it was present to cut it, and helped the draft, and saw it cut, and this said to be true per juramen- tum.-To article twelve of said cedula. He answered, and said: That he knows, and saw the depositor, that one of the Placists in said Stable took that leg, and the
2 took to bury, and heard say they buried her in the C-menterio; and this said to be true per juramentum.- To article thirteen of said cedula, being read, he answered, and said: That the depositor knows well, and saw, after said leg was cut, said Lic. uan de Estanga continued his cure of the residue of said leg, until it healed, and this said to be true perjuramentum
.
Perhaps it says something that the most widely-cited 'rebuttal' of the miracle claim was one which took 10 years to surface and then turns out to be based on false information about the available evidence!



Final references and concluding thoughts

A few of the other sources I checked:
2015 sceptical thread on Reddit - there are some good critical questions about the nature of the alleged miracle here, especially by 'TacoFugitive' and 'TooManyInLitter.' The latter makes the claim (seen also in a comment on the atheistforums.org thread) that Dr. Estanga was "not allowed to examine the stump" of Pellicer's leg during his later examinations, but I cannot find any source for that claim - certainly it isn't indicated in his testimony above! Quite the opposite; both he and Millaruelo said that he (Estanga) treated the leg for a few months afterwards, and on Pellicer's later visits Estanga saw it "unwound." However aside from that there doesn't seem to be anything in this thread contradicting the details above, merely questioning the nature of the 'miracle' itself, which hardly invalidates it.

2013 thread on WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com forums - the discussion here is frankly disappointing, but provided for the sake of completeness.

2006 circular letter from a French abbey - A pro-miracle source which I looked at beacuse it's cited on Wikipedia and a couple of these other threads. Some details are included which I can't verify elsewhere. For example the claim that "On March 29, 1640 [the night of the miracle], the region celebrated the 1600th anniversary of the Virgin Mary's coming in the mortal flesh to the banks of the Ebro, according to the belief of the people of the area." 1640 was indeed the 1600th anniversary year of an alleged apparition of Mary to James the Greater, but the common celebration of that event is October 12th (while another source suggests the apparition occurred on January 2nd).

2012 article by the Times of Malta - a pro-miracle source referenced in the Reddit thread above. I found it interesting partly because I've previously posted a thread about the alleged miracles at Lourdes, and this article quotes "decidedly anti-Catholic" film-maker Luis Bunuel as declaring that "Compared to Calanda, Lourdes is a mediocre place."


My own thoughts are that, yes, the circumstances and nature of the alleged miracle are strange, but the evidence is compelling. Besides the four quoted above there were also numerous testimonies from folk who'd known the one-legged beggar over those two and a half years and - allegedly - no dissenting voices which contradicted the reports.

If I had to concoct my own alternative theory - speculation would be a more accurate term - I suppose it would have to be more or less the one advocated by Dunning, with a conspiracy theory on top to explain the doctors' testimony:
> Did 'the authorities' encourage Pellicer to fake the whole thing right from the very beginning with his arrival in Zaragoza? This is obviously pretty far-fetched to begin with.
> Did they discover his ruse in early 1940, but then plan the 'miracle' and its 'discovery' with him? Still somewhat implausible in conspiracy theory terms, with added problems of Pellicer initially choosing the life of a beggar (not to mention obtaining his permit to beg at the shrine, as if the licensing authorities wouldn't ask to examine the leg!).
> Or did 'the authorities' jump on the bandwagon after the 'miracle' had become popularized in Calanda? That's considerably more plausible as a conspiracy theory, but retains the latter two problems above, and adds the question of how Pellicer could be so clumsily discovered.

This was 17th century Spain, in the midst of the Franco-Spanish war and a time of growing discontent around the Spanish Empire (which later in 1640 would lead to an uprising in nearby Catalonia). Dr. Estanga himself was a "family member of the Holy Office of the Inquisition of Aragon" and many modern minds are naturally inclined towards distrust of that organization even moreso than kings and churches generally! Conspiracy theories are always problematic - they're invoked to explain away the evidence, rather than follow its conclusions - but obviously sometimes conspiracies do occur.

So my question is not whether this is indisputable proof of a restored limb - it's obviously not - but how likely would you consider the miracle to be? Or rather than expressing opinions about the likelihood of a miracle, which would be an exercise in futility and circularity, perhaps the opposite question is more appropriate for an objective consideration. In order to suppose that the four testimonies quoted above are all incorrect, it obviously would have to be some kind of conspiracy to deliberately and dishonestly promote a false miracle. For my part I would guess - and I imagine it will only ever be a guess, for all of us - maybe a 7 in 10 likelihood of conspiracy... a mere 30% likelihood of a genuine miracle, give or take... that the conspiracy-falsehood of the testimonies are twice as probable as their truth.

The 'miracle' is obviously far from certain, but one thing is for sure: We will still keep seeing folk insisting that there is 'no evidence' for miracles and raising amputations as if they were some kind of irrefutable trump card :lol:


How likely do you consider that this evidence is all the result of some conspiracy? And why?

Bust Nak
Savant
Posts: 9874
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am
Location: Planet Earth
Has thanked: 189 times
Been thanked: 267 times

Re: Healing an amputated leg

Post #41

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to post 33 by Peds nurse]
Your husband doesn't puppet you to act in a loving way, but he does do things for you to make sure no harm come to you right, to the best of his ability?

What is your view on hell? The obvious follow up question (if applicable) is, does your husband threaten that he would cast you into (the equivalent of) hell for failing to love him?

Bottom line, there is no obvious parallel between the relationship between husband and wife, and the relationship between God and man as described in the Bible.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #42

Post by marco »

[Replying to post 39 by Mithrae]

The thesis on the benign side of the Inquisition - is that the one that featured Toms de Torquemada? - is almost as incredible as the tale of the restored limb. It is amusing that when I suggest somebody, somewhere lied or was forced to lie at a time when brute force was as common as daisies I am asked to substantiate this "conspiracy theory", for obviously a miracle explanation is far better than one that suggests human beings lie under oath.

I think we can safely conclude no miracle took place though exactly who deceived whom is maybe not clear. Does that matter?

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4326
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 195 times

Post #43

Post by Mithrae »

marco wrote: [Replying to post 39 by Mithrae]

The thesis on the benign side of the Inquisition - is that the one that featured Toms de Torquemada? - is almost as incredible as the tale of the restored limb. It is amusing that when I suggest somebody, somewhere lied or was forced to lie at a time when brute force was as common as daisies I am asked to substantiate this "conspiracy theory", for obviously a miracle explanation is far better than one that suggests human beings lie under oath.
Torquemada died 140 years before the events outlined in the OP, so I'm not entirely sure why you think he's relevant to this discussion? Is this simply a guilt-by-association fallacy? Every large and especially every long-lasting institution has had members to whom history has not been kind.

'Brute force' does not automatically translate into 'intention to wilfully perpetrate fraud,' as I noted. The primary stated purpose of the inquisition was to oppose heresy, of which fraudulent miracles would likely be considered an example, and organizing false testimony from the various medical workers and co-operation from Pellicer himself would indeed require a conspiracy to accomplish.

Even so, I clearly stated in the OP that in my opinion the unsubstantiated, explain-away-the-evidence conspiracy theory is still somewhat more plausible to my mind than the miracle explanation; your comment that "obviously a miracle explanation is far better" is perhaps another example of your famous attempts at mockery. In the past you actually were one of the (few very) critics who has acknowledged any real uncertainty on the subject, any distinct possibility that a miracle occurred, but you seem to be going back on that now.
marco wrote: I think we can safely conclude no miracle took place though exactly who deceived whom is maybe not clear.

PghPanther
Guru
Posts: 1242
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:18 pm
Location: Parts Unknown

Post #44

Post by PghPanther »

"One survey suggested that 73 percent of U.S. physicians believe in miracles, and 55 percent claim to have personally witnessed treatment results they consider miraculous"

Doctors may use that description as a pejorative and not an actual event in conflict with the laws of physics......and those that do believe in such literal miracles demonstrate that critical thinking skills are not always correlated with the level of intelligence and/or the education one has.

If someone is miraculously healed by God they would not have needed any treatment to set up the healing to begin with.

I knew a girl who had a brain tumor operated on. She was told she had a 10% chance of surviving the operation.......she lived with no negative effects and as a result believed it was a miracle from God due to a person that made the rounds in the hospital and prayed for her before the operation.

Never did she consider the doctors role in this process nor the fact that a 10% chance of surviving the operation is still better than 0%...........

I told her if you really would have been healed miraculously you would have never needed the operation at all and the tumor would have been removed by the Holy Spirit alone.............

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4326
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 195 times

Post #45

Post by Mithrae »

PghPanther wrote: "One survey suggested that 73 percent of U.S. physicians believe in miracles, and 55 percent claim to have personally witnessed treatment results they consider miraculous"

Doctors may use that description as a pejorative and not an actual event in conflict with the laws of physics......and those that do believe in such literal miracles demonstrate that critical thinking skills are not always correlated with the level of intelligence and/or the education one has.

If someone is miraculously healed by God they would not have needed any treatment to set up the healing to begin with.
I'm not sure that's a very persuasive theological position, and hence not a very fair comment on these doctors' critical thinking skills. Are we going to imagine a God who'll run around after us instantly fixing all our problems? That's obviously not the reality we live in, and it doesn't sound like a very wise or benevolent deity either. If we get sick, we should seek a medical, dietary, physiological etc. remedy for that sickness. It's obviously a somewhat subjective call, but if you were God would you miraculously heal someone who doesn't bother getting off their behind to see a doctor first?

The anecdote about your friend is an important point, and obviously there'd be plenty of patients who erroneously call success on a 1% or 10% treatment a 'miracle' (presumably meaning merely providence), and doubtless some doctors too. But what fraction of those doctor-reported miracles should we imagine that scenario covers? I can imagine four broad scenarios here:
1 > Doctor flat-out wrongly reports/concludes a miracle (eg. success is claimed as a miracle, when there was only a 90% probability of failure)
2 > Doctor error in assessing the medical situation (ie. supposes a 100% probability of failure, when other doctors would have given a better prognosis)
3 > Limitations of medical science in assessing the medical situation (ie. a natural healing which simply wasn't yet properly understood)
4 > It really was a hopeless situation, miraculously healed

There are over one million physicians in the USA, which based on that survey implies well over 500,000 first-hand reports of medical miracles from obviously intelligent, obviously educated experts in the field. How likely is it that any particular expert is mistaken (#1 or #2 above)? 50/50 odds that they simply got it wrong? Let's say that there's an 80% probability of doctor error in any given case - an absurdly high assumption, but never mind. That still leaves 100,000+ credible expert miracle reports, to be explained either by limitations in medical knowledge (#3) or by genuine miracles (#4). So what percentage of those can we legitimately assume are 'explained' by limitations in medical knowledge? 80%? 90% even? That would still leave 10,000+ genuine miracles in the USA in the past five or six decades. A philosophical naturalist needs to 'explain' - more correctly, just blindly assume - 100% of those credible expert reports as simply limitations in medical knowledge. It's not a rational position, it's just an article of faith.

---

Of particular interest, we should note that if miracles do not occur we should strongly expect the highly intelligent, well-educated group which doctors represent to have significantly lower rates of belief in miracles than the less intelligent, less educated averages of society. But if miracles are provided by a benevolent deity, we could reasonably expect that a lot of those miracles would come in the form of healing and hence be unsurprised by a high rate of belief in and witness of miracles in the medical professions.

Checking a few sources, belief in miracles among the general American public is put at around >72% (2007 Baylor survey, Q22), "roughly 80%" (2012 HuffPost article in which I originally found the quote above) or 66% (2016 Barna article). Belief in miracles among American doctors does not seem to be significantly different from that at ~75%.

Claims to have witnessed miracles among the general American public lies around 23% (2007 Baylor survey, Q26), or perhaps a bit above 29% among Christians specifically (based on reported witness of "divine healings" in a 2006 Pew survey). In this case, reported witness of miracles is much, much higher among doctors, at 55%.

Thus quite aside from the mere numerical argument of doctors' reported witness of miraculous healings, the comparison and the fact that even this intelligent, educated subset of the population are just as likely to believe in and much more likely to have witnessed miracles is precisely the opposite of what we'd expect if miracles do not occur, but highly consistent with the scenario in which they do.


Edit: A couple of better references regarding the doctors' belief in miracles:
https://www.mdmag.com/journals/pmd/2005/85/3635
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/health/ ... story.html
Virtually all the Google results I've found on the subject seem to cite the 2004 survey mentioned in the first link, but importantly the second suggests that there were similar results found from surveys in 2008 and 2010 also. I'd like to track down more information on that point, but really have to head off to bed!

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Post #46

Post by Willum »

Dude could have just had a mutation that allowed him to heal such injuries.
I mean I know someone who has grown back the top half of their third digit, so similar things have happened and are possible.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4326
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 195 times

Post #47

Post by Mithrae »

Willum wrote: Dude could have just had a mutation that allowed him to heal such injuries.
I mean I know someone who has grown back the top half of their third digit, so similar things have happened and are possible.
I've just thought to look that up and it is quite fascinating:
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerat ... ns#Fingers
    In May 1932, L.H. McKim published a report in The Canadian Medical Association Journal, that described the regeneration of an adult digit-tip following amputation. A house surgeon in the Montreal General Hospital underwent amputation of the distal phalanx to stop the spread of an infection. In less than one month following surgery, x-ray analysis showed the regrowth of bone while macroscopic observation showed the regrowth of nail and skin.[17] . . . .

    In August 2005, Lee Spievack, then in his early sixties, accidentally sliced off the tip of his right middle finger just above the first phalanx. His brother, Dr. Alan Spievack, was researching regeneration and provided him with powdered extracellular matrix, developed by Dr. Stephen Badylak of the McGowan Institute of Regenerative Medicine. Mr. Spievack covered the wound with the powder, and the tip of his finger re-grew in four weeks.[21]
I'm not sure that could explain Pellicer's case though; quite aside from the pretty substantial difference between half a finger and half a leg, these cases seem to be of immediate regrowth over a matter of weeks. In Pellicer's case, he continued in Estanga's care for "a few months" after the amputation, obviously with no sign of regrowth, and it wasn't until two years later - and apparently within a single evening - that the limb was restored.

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Guru
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Healing an amputated leg

Post #48

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Interesting is that the case of the Spanish Soldier Gil Perez who was 1593 teleported from the Phillipines to Mexico also Sprung from spanish culture.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1593_tr ... ier_legend

As well as the receiving of a magical self portrait from Virgin Mary by Huan Diego in 1531.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Diego

The spanish empyre was extremely fanatic christian.

That context should be takten into account, when researching the OP topic.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2576 times

Re: Healing an amputated leg

Post #49

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Healing an amputated leg'll be it a pretty good fussing, till mankind figures out how to do it, and that bunch of theists then hops up and hollers, "SEE!"

There's just too many reasons the theist can consider for how come not, that the glaringly obvious answere'd get it lost in the shuffle.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2576 times

Re: Healing an amputated leg

Post #50

Post by JoeyKnothead »

dupe delete
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

Post Reply