Convergence of evidence

[Confused]

In another thread by Achilles, he asks if atheist require more strict standards of examinating evidence of scripture. I am going to ask any theist/or atheist to apply the "Convergence of Evidence" to any event in the OT or the NT that can lead from a hypothesis (bedtime story) to a theory (accepted event). In science, such as with the theory of evolution we draw this evidence from multiple disciplines such as archaeology, palenontology, historical writings/artifacts, geology, biology, chemisty, physics, genetics, etc...... to come to the conclusion of evololution not being simply a hypothesis, but a theory. One continue to learn more about everyday from these disciplines.

So up for grabs here:
1) Pick any extraordinary event that occurred in the NT or OT and prove it with the accepted method of convergence of evidence. In other words, literature alone won't work. You need multiple disciplines to validate your evidence and multiple sources from each discipline to ensure your evidence is reliable.

[Confused]

Confused wrote: 1) Pick any extraordinary event that occurred in the NT or OT and prove it with the accepted method of convergence of evidence. In other words, literature alone won't work. You need multiple disciplines to validate your evidence and multiple sources from each discipline to ensure your evidence is reliable.

Which disciplines are these that you are talking about? Archaeology? How can you have archaeological evidence for a supernatural event, such as the blind being healed, Jesus resurrected, etc.?

No, any of the following or similar:
1) Great flood
2) 10 plagues of egypt
3) crucifixion and/or resurrection of Christ
4) The Ark
5) destruction of various cities by other than natural disasters (ie volcanos, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados.


The convergence of evidence is nothing more that a collection of evidence from multiple disciplines to validate the event and ensure its validity. It can come from any field of study, but there must be several. Evolution relies on cosmology, physics, biology, paleontology, geology, archaeology, sociology, chemistry, etc.... I would accept a certain amout of written history, but it must be shown to be true with other disciplines. There is the kicker. It can't just be literature. I will post a reply I gave to Achilles in a minute to explain why eye witness accounts aren't always reliable.

OK, let's take # 3 for starters: 3) crucifixion and/or resurrection of Christ. Tell us specifically what you have to have. For instance, what evidence can cosmology, physics, biology, paleontology, geology, archaeology, sociology, chemistry, etc., possibly provide for a resurrected man?

I don't think there is any particular standard per se. Just multiple sources from multiple fields. For #3, you could apply literature, sociology, paleontology, archaeology, and various other sources. Recall the key concept here: They must be valid mulitple sources that have shown reliablility w/o biases. All your sources of disciplines must agree with one another for reliability and validity.

[Easyrider]

Confused wrote: 1) Pick any extraordinary event that occurred in the NT or OT and prove it with the accepted method of convergence of evidence. In other words, literature alone won't work. You need multiple disciplines to validate your evidence and multiple sources from each discipline to ensure your evidence is reliable.

Which disciplines are these that you are talking about? Archaeology? How can you have archaeological evidence for a supernatural event, such as the blind being healed, Jesus resurrected, etc.?

No, any of the following or similar:
1) Great flood
2) 10 plagues of egypt
3) crucifixion and/or resurrection of Christ
4) The Ark
5) destruction of various cities by other than natural disasters (ie volcanos, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados.


The convergence of evidence is nothing more that a collection of evidence from multiple disciplines to validate the event and ensure its validity. It can come from any field of study, but there must be several. Evolution relies on cosmology, physics, biology, paleontology, geology, archaeology, sociology, chemistry, etc.... I would accept a certain amout of written history, but it must be shown to be true with other disciplines. There is the kicker. It can't just be literature. I will post a reply I gave to Achilles in a minute to explain why eye witness accounts aren't always reliable.

OK, let's take # 3 for starters: 3) crucifixion and/or resurrection of Christ. Tell us specifically what you have to have. For instance, what evidence can cosmology, physics, biology, paleontology, geology, archaeology, sociology, chemistry, etc., possibly provide for a resurrected man?

I don't think there is any particular standard per se. Just multiple sources from multiple fields. For #3, you could apply literature, sociology, paleontology, archaeology, and various other sources.

You could do that for all historical events, but you'd probably have a very thin history book. I think you're trying to introduce a standard for Biblical accounts that you don't impose on the rest of historical events and personalities from antiquity.

[Confused]

Confused wrote: 1) Pick any extraordinary event that occurred in the NT or OT and prove it with the accepted method of convergence of evidence. In other words, literature alone won't work. You need multiple disciplines to validate your evidence and multiple sources from each discipline to ensure your evidence is reliable.

Which disciplines are these that you are talking about? Archaeology? How can you have archaeological evidence for a supernatural event, such as the blind being healed, Jesus resurrected, etc.?

No, any of the following or similar:
1) Great flood
2) 10 plagues of egypt
3) crucifixion and/or resurrection of Christ
4) The Ark
5) destruction of various cities by other than natural disasters (ie volcanos, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados.


The convergence of evidence is nothing more that a collection of evidence from multiple disciplines to validate the event and ensure its validity. It can come from any field of study, but there must be several. Evolution relies on cosmology, physics, biology, paleontology, geology, archaeology, sociology, chemistry, etc.... I would accept a certain amout of written history, but it must be shown to be true with other disciplines. There is the kicker. It can't just be literature. I will post a reply I gave to Achilles in a minute to explain why eye witness accounts aren't always reliable.

OK, let's take # 3 for starters: 3) crucifixion and/or resurrection of Christ. Tell us specifically what you have to have. For instance, what evidence can cosmology, physics, biology, paleontology, geology, archaeology, sociology, chemistry, etc., possibly provide for a resurrected man?

I don't think there is any particular standard per se. Just multiple sources from multiple fields. For #3, you could apply literature, sociology, paleontology, archaeology, and various other sources.

You could do that for all historical events, but you'd probably have a very thin history book. I think you're trying to introduce a standard for Biblical accounts that you don't impose on the rest of historical events and personalities from antiquity.

And I think you are still avoiding. Should what you have written be true, then don't post. It is that simple.

[Goat]

Confused wrote: 1) Pick any extraordinary event that occurred in the NT or OT and prove it with the accepted method of convergence of evidence. In other words, literature alone won't work. You need multiple disciplines to validate your evidence and multiple sources from each discipline to ensure your evidence is reliable.

Which disciplines are these that you are talking about? Archaeology? How can you have archaeological evidence for a supernatural event, such as the blind being healed, Jesus resurrected, etc.?

No, any of the following or similar:
1) Great flood
2) 10 plagues of egypt
3) crucifixion and/or resurrection of Christ
4) The Ark
5) destruction of various cities by other than natural disasters (ie volcanos, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados.


The convergence of evidence is nothing more that a collection of evidence from multiple disciplines to validate the event and ensure its validity. It can come from any field of study, but there must be several. Evolution relies on cosmology, physics, biology, paleontology, geology, archaeology, sociology, chemistry, etc.... I would accept a certain amout of written history, but it must be shown to be true with other disciplines. There is the kicker. It can't just be literature. I will post a reply I gave to Achilles in a minute to explain why eye witness accounts aren't always reliable.

OK, let's take # 3 for starters: 3) crucifixion and/or resurrection of Christ. Tell us specifically what you have to have. For instance, what evidence can cosmology, physics, biology, paleontology, geology, archaeology, sociology, chemistry, etc., possibly provide for a resurrected man?

I don't think there is any particular standard per se. Just multiple sources from multiple fields. For #3, you could apply literature, sociology, paleontology, archaeology, and various other sources.

You could do that for all historical events, but you'd probably have a very thin history book. I think you're trying to introduce a standard for Biblical accounts that you don't impose on the rest of historical events and personalities from antiquity.

ON the contrary.. we have, for most of the rest of history, archelogical evidence, contemporary evidence, and reports that people that don't have an axe to grind.

[MrWhy]

OK, let's take # 3 for starters: 3) crucifixion and/or resurrection of Christ. Tell us specifically what you have to have. For instance, what evidence can cosmology, physics, biology, paleontology, geology, archaeology, sociology, chemistry, etc., possibly provide for a resurrected man?

None for a resurrection that was supposed to have occurred centuries back. That's the problem. This type of miracle claim cannot have any evidence of substance, because it happened too long back. If it happened today it might be possible to verify, providing there was continuous observation by a team of objective analyst. They would have to observe, and test at each of the three stages. Alive, dead, and then alive again. This is a tough standard, but a resurrection is a tough thing to do. The level of evidence required depends on how extraordinary the claim is.

[Confused]

OK, let's take # 3 for starters: 3) crucifixion and/or resurrection of Christ. Tell us specifically what you have to have. For instance, what evidence can cosmology, physics, biology, paleontology, geology, archaeology, sociology, chemistry, etc., possibly provide for a resurrected man?

None for a resurrection that was supposed to have occurred centuries back. That's the problem. This type of miracle claim cannot have any evidence of substance, because it happened too long back. If it happened today it might be possible to verify, providing there was continuous observation by a team of objective analyst. They would have to observe, and test at each of the three stages. Alive, dead, and then alive again. This is a tough standard, but a resurrection is a tough thing to do. The level of evidence required depends on how extraordinary the claim is.

We can trace the history of evolution back thousands of years using all the sources I have listed above. You are telling me that something that happened 2007 years ago is out of our scope of using the convergence of evidence? I am not limiting the use of evidence to supernatural events, anything in the bible will suffice. We can start small and move up to the biggies if you wish. I leave the choices of what theists opt to apply the convergence of evidence to. How extraordinary was evolution considered back in the days of Darwin? Yet, science was able to use the convergence of evidence to validate it leading to the theory of evolution. Can not one event in the bible be applied?

[achilles12604]

Sorry for coming in so late Confused. I hope I can get back to your OP.

5) destruction of various cities by other than natural disasters (ie volcanos, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados.

Lets take this one.

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

Lets examine Sodom in great detail. First some background.

Sodom was one of a group of five towns, the Pentapolis (Wisdom 10:6): Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Bela -- also called Zoar (Genesis 19:22). The Pentapolis region is also collectively referred to as "the Cities of the Plain" (Genesis 13:12) since they were all sited on the plain of the Jordan River, in an area that constituted the southern limit of the lands of the Canaanites (Genesis 10:19). Lot, a nephew of Abram (Abraham) chose to live in Sodom, because of the proximity of good grazing for his flocks (Genesis 13:5-11).

In Genesis 18, God informs Abraham that he plans to destroy the city of Sodom because of its gross immorality. Abraham pleads with God not to destroy Sodom, and God agrees that he would not destroy the city if there were 50 righteous people in it, then 45, then 30, then 20, or even ten righteous people. The Lord's two angels only found one righteous person living in Sodom, Abraham's nephew Lot. Consequently, God follows through with his plans to destroy the city.

In Genesis 19:4-5, the final episode in the story of Sodom is described as the angels visit Lot to warn him to flee:

4. When they had not yet retired, and the people of the city, the people of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, the entire populace from every end[of the city].
5. And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, and let us be intimate with them." (Judaica Press.)

Lot refused to give the visiting angels to the men of Sodom and instead offered them his two daughters. The men refused to accept this compromise. The men were struck with blindness, allowing Lot and his family, who were then instructed to leave the city, to escape, and Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with fire and brimstone by God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah

So what is the evidence for Sodom actually occurring? Well first what should we expect to find? Archeology for sure should be able to help us. We should be able to find remnants of a city which was destroyed by incendiary means. This same city should be in close proximity to 4 other cities of the same era.

This city should have been inhabited BEFORE a certain time period.


We should also check to see if there are non-biblical attestations of this event. HOWEVER, because this occurred during a time when writing hadn’t even been developed yet, this should not be a requirement.


We might be able to use anthropology to determine if the inhabitants of these cities lived in a culture of sexual promiscuity, thievery and other immoral (unbiblical) actions.


I think this covers what we might be able to use so lets start looking.

ARCHEOLOGY -

There are several competing sites for Sodom. I have found one which meets all the criteria very well in my opinion.

From Wiki
One candidate for Sodom is a site known as Bab edh-Dhra. Bab edh-Dhra was an Early Bronze Age city located near the Dead Sea, and bitumen and petroleum deposits have been found in the area, which contain sulfur and natural gas. The theory is that an earthquake opened a nearby pocket of natural gas. This gas drifted up and reacted with fires burning in the city. As a result, the city was devastated.

From this source we can determine many things.

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~semitic/wl/ ... hdhra.html

Lapp's excavations in 1965 were the first to show that Bâb edh-Dhrâ‘ was an Early Bronze Age settlement rather than a specialized ceremonial site, as many had speculated prior to his work (P. Lapp 1966: 560-61; for references to the prevalent interpretation of the site as a distinctive one accompanied by cultic activities see Schaub and Rast 1989: 17-18). Following upon Lapp's discoveries, the several seasons of the Expedition to the Dead Sea Plain (EDSP) have uncovered a great deal more evidence for the history of Early Bronze settlement here. Therefore, it now has to be recognized that if a special significance is to be ascribed to Bâb edh-Dhrâ‘ it is not because it was an unusual site in antiquity but rather because it provides a unique case of Early Bronze Age urbanism in an exceptional part of the country, the isolated environment along the southeastern Dead Sea Plain.

1) This site was inhabited at the same approx time as the story in Genesis would indicate.

2) This site is located is located near the dead sea.

From this source we can determine a few things as well.

http://www.nd.edu/~edsp/babedhdrah.html
Four of these buildings had extensive burn areas with remnants of burnt roof beams and fragments of wattle and daub roofing. Although there were a few intrusive later burials associated with late EB III and EB IV pottery, the destruction of the buildings coincides with the end of the main EB III occupation of the walled town.

Notice that at the height of the city, it was destroyed suddenly with massive fire. This fire was able to scorch even the adobe the buildings were made of.

Although interpretation of the latest EB occupation at Bab edh-Dhra' remains problematical, particularly with regard to the critical question of continuity in population with the EB III town dwellers, the settlement pattern of an open village seems clear. The EDSP has established the rather solid conclusion regarding EB IV at Bab edh-Dhra', that EB IV occupation is mostly absent from the town site, with the exception of the special area in Field XVI, and that most of the occupation seems to have taken place away from the ruined remains of the town.

From this we can determine that the destruction of the city was total. The populace was basically gone and the survivors of the fire moved to a more remote location and rebuilt a much smaller community.

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_ ... 3W0903.pdf

While this source is Christian, he is an archeologist and he has done excavations in and around Bab Edh-Dhra. He also cites numerous other archeologists who concur with his findings. ALSO his findings match up with other secular sources, although his have greater detail about the destruction and less about the tombs.

I can't cut and paste from this source so I will allow you to read for yourselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bab_edh-Dhra
Bab edh-Dhra (bāb al-dhrā' ) is the site of an Early Bronze Age city, located near the Dead Sea, in Wadi Araba, forwarded as a candidate for the location of Biblical Sodom.

Bitumen and petroleum deposits have been found in the area, which contain sulfur and natural gas (as such deposits normally do), and one theory suggests that a pocket of natural gas led to the incineration of the city.

This Wiki site is corroborated by other sites. Just Google petroleum at Bab edh-Dhra and you get plenty of sources.

This source gives a plausible solution to the cause of a great fire in a city in the middle of a river plain constructed mostly of clay or adobe.




What have we found so far?

1) Bab Edh-Dhra is near the dead sea

2) Bab Edh-Dhra is near 4 other cities

3) Bab Edh-Dhra was inhabited and at its height during the timeframe associated with genesis.

4) Bab Edh-Dhra was suddenly and completely destroyed.

5) Bab Edh-Dhra was destroyed by fire

6) This fire could have easily been caused by natural resources.

Now I have compiled MOST of this information from non-biblical, non-Christian sources. The foundations funding most of the research I gleaned this information from are plenty secular and reputable.

The Expedition to the Dead Sea Plain Sea is affiliated with the American Schools of Oriental Research and has been funded by grants from the National Endowment for the Humanities, the National Geographic Society, and by contributions from several corporations and foundations as well as a group of individuals. Several institutions, including Valparaiso U., Indiana U. of Pennsylvania, St.John's U., in Collegeville, Kansas State U., the U. of Montana, Harvard Semitic Museum , U. of Pittsburgh, and Carnegie Museum of Pittsburgh have contributed staff and financial support. The Bab edh-Dhra' cemetery project is sponsored jointly by ASOR and the Smithsonian Institution, with Donald Ortner as coordinator.

So now we can see that this "story" is at the very least plausible. I don't have time right now to research the other areas I mentioned as this took about 4 hours. Sorry but I hope I completed my task for the most part.

[wrekk]

Sorry for coming in so late Confused. I hope I can get back to your OP.

5) destruction of various cities by other than natural disasters (ie volcanos, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados.

Lets take this one.

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

Lets examine Sodom in great detail. First some background.

Sodom was one of a group of five towns, the Pentapolis (Wisdom 10:6): Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Bela -- also called Zoar (Genesis 19:22). The Pentapolis region is also collectively referred to as "the Cities of the Plain" (Genesis 13:12) since they were all sited on the plain of the Jordan River, in an area that constituted the southern limit of the lands of the Canaanites (Genesis 10:19). Lot, a nephew of Abram (Abraham) chose to live in Sodom, because of the proximity of good grazing for his flocks (Genesis 13:5-11).

In Genesis 18, God informs Abraham that he plans to destroy the city of Sodom because of its gross immorality. Abraham pleads with God not to destroy Sodom, and God agrees that he would not destroy the city if there were 50 righteous people in it, then 45, then 30, then 20, or even ten righteous people. The Lord's two angels only found one righteous person living in Sodom, Abraham's nephew Lot. Consequently, God follows through with his plans to destroy the city.

In Genesis 19:4-5, the final episode in the story of Sodom is described as the angels visit Lot to warn him to flee:

4. When they had not yet retired, and the people of the city, the people of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, the entire populace from every end[of the city].
5. And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, and let us be intimate with them." (Judaica Press.)

Lot refused to give the visiting angels to the men of Sodom and instead offered them his two daughters. The men refused to accept this compromise. The men were struck with blindness, allowing Lot and his family, who were then instructed to leave the city, to escape, and Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with fire and brimstone by God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah

So what is the evidence for Sodom actually occurring? Well first what should we expect to find? Archeology for sure should be able to help us. We should be able to find remnants of a city which was destroyed by incendiary means. This same city should be in close proximity to 4 other cities of the same era.

This city should have been inhabited BEFORE a certain time period.


We should also check to see if there are non-biblical attestations of this event. HOWEVER, because this occurred during a time when writing hadn’t even been developed yet, this should not be a requirement.


We might be able to use anthropology to determine if the inhabitants of these cities lived in a culture of sexual promiscuity, thievery and other immoral (unbiblical) actions.


I think this covers what we might be able to use so lets start looking.

ARCHEOLOGY -

There are several competing sites for Sodom. I have found one which meets all the criteria very well in my opinion.

From Wiki
One candidate for Sodom is a site known as Bab edh-Dhra. Bab edh-Dhra was an Early Bronze Age city located near the Dead Sea, and bitumen and petroleum deposits have been found in the area, which contain sulfur and natural gas. The theory is that an earthquake opened a nearby pocket of natural gas. This gas drifted up and reacted with fires burning in the city. As a result, the city was devastated.

From this source we can determine many things.

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~semitic/wl/ ... hdhra.html

Lapp's excavations in 1965 were the first to show that Bâb edh-Dhrâ‘ was an Early Bronze Age settlement rather than a specialized ceremonial site, as many had speculated prior to his work (P. Lapp 1966: 560-61; for references to the prevalent interpretation of the site as a distinctive one accompanied by cultic activities see Schaub and Rast 1989: 17-18). Following upon Lapp's discoveries, the several seasons of the Expedition to the Dead Sea Plain (EDSP) have uncovered a great deal more evidence for the history of Early Bronze settlement here. Therefore, it now has to be recognized that if a special significance is to be ascribed to Bâb edh-Dhrâ‘ it is not because it was an unusual site in antiquity but rather because it provides a unique case of Early Bronze Age urbanism in an exceptional part of the country, the isolated environment along the southeastern Dead Sea Plain.

1) This site was inhabited at the same approx time as the story in Genesis would indicate.

2) This site is located is located near the dead sea.

From this source we can determine a few things as well.

http://www.nd.edu/~edsp/babedhdrah.html
Four of these buildings had extensive burn areas with remnants of burnt roof beams and fragments of wattle and daub roofing. Although there were a few intrusive later burials associated with late EB III and EB IV pottery, the destruction of the buildings coincides with the end of the main EB III occupation of the walled town.

Notice that at the height of the city, it was destroyed suddenly with massive fire. This fire was able to scorch even the adobe the buildings were made of.

Although interpretation of the latest EB occupation at Bab edh-Dhra' remains problematical, particularly with regard to the critical question of continuity in population with the EB III town dwellers, the settlement pattern of an open village seems clear. The EDSP has established the rather solid conclusion regarding EB IV at Bab edh-Dhra', that EB IV occupation is mostly absent from the town site, with the exception of the special area in Field XVI, and that most of the occupation seems to have taken place away from the ruined remains of the town.

From this we can determine that the destruction of the city was total. The populace was basically gone and the survivors of the fire moved to a more remote location and rebuilt a much smaller community.

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_ ... 3W0903.pdf

While this source is Christian, he is an archeologist and he has done excavations in and around Bab Edh-Dhra. He also cites numerous other archeologists who concur with his findings. ALSO his findings match up with other secular sources, although his have greater detail about the destruction and less about the tombs.

I can't cut and paste from this source so I will allow you to read for yourselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bab_edh-Dhra
Bab edh-Dhra (bāb al-dhrā' ) is the site of an Early Bronze Age city, located near the Dead Sea, in Wadi Araba, forwarded as a candidate for the location of Biblical Sodom.

Bitumen and petroleum deposits have been found in the area, which contain sulfur and natural gas (as such deposits normally do), and one theory suggests that a pocket of natural gas led to the incineration of the city.

This Wiki site is corroborated by other sites. Just Google petroleum at Bab edh-Dhra and you get plenty of sources.

This source gives a plausible solution to the cause of a great fire in a city in the middle of a river plain constructed mostly of clay or adobe.




What have we found so far?

1) Bab Edh-Dhra is near the dead sea

2) Bab Edh-Dhra is near 4 other cities

3) Bab Edh-Dhra was inhabited and at its height during the timeframe associated with genesis.

4) Bab Edh-Dhra was suddenly and completely destroyed.

5) Bab Edh-Dhra was destroyed by fire

6) This fire could have easily been caused by natural resources.

Now I have compiled MOST of this information from non-biblical, non-Christian sources. The foundations funding most of the research I gleaned this information from are plenty secular and reputable.

The Expedition to the Dead Sea Plain Sea is affiliated with the American Schools of Oriental Research and has been funded by grants from the National Endowment for the Humanities, the National Geographic Society, and by contributions from several corporations and foundations as well as a group of individuals. Several institutions, including Valparaiso U., Indiana U. of Pennsylvania, St.John's U., in Collegeville, Kansas State U., the U. of Montana, Harvard Semitic Museum , U. of Pittsburgh, and Carnegie Museum of Pittsburgh have contributed staff and financial support. The Bab edh-Dhra' cemetery project is sponsored jointly by ASOR and the Smithsonian Institution, with Donald Ortner as coordinator.

So now we can see that this "story" is at the very least plausible. I don't have time right now to research the other areas I mentioned as this took about 4 hours. Sorry but I hope I completed my task for the most part.

Very interesting. Will have to look into this more myself. Great find.

[Confused]

Sorry for coming in so late Confused. I hope I can get back to your OP.

5) destruction of various cities by other than natural disasters (ie volcanos, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados.

Lets take this one.

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

Lets examine Sodom in great detail. First some background.

Sodom was one of a group of five towns, the Pentapolis (Wisdom 10:6): Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Bela -- also called Zoar (Genesis 19:22). The Pentapolis region is also collectively referred to as "the Cities of the Plain" (Genesis 13:12) since they were all sited on the plain of the Jordan River, in an area that constituted the southern limit of the lands of the Canaanites (Genesis 10:19). Lot, a nephew of Abram (Abraham) chose to live in Sodom, because of the proximity of good grazing for his flocks (Genesis 13:5-11).

In Genesis 18, God informs Abraham that he plans to destroy the city of Sodom because of its gross immorality. Abraham pleads with God not to destroy Sodom, and God agrees that he would not destroy the city if there were 50 righteous people in it, then 45, then 30, then 20, or even ten righteous people. The Lord's two angels only found one righteous person living in Sodom, Abraham's nephew Lot. Consequently, God follows through with his plans to destroy the city.

In Genesis 19:4-5, the final episode in the story of Sodom is described as the angels visit Lot to warn him to flee:

4. When they had not yet retired, and the people of the city, the people of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, the entire populace from every end[of the city].
5. And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, and let us be intimate with them." (Judaica Press.)

Lot refused to give the visiting angels to the men of Sodom and instead offered them his two daughters. The men refused to accept this compromise. The men were struck with blindness, allowing Lot and his family, who were then instructed to leave the city, to escape, and Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with fire and brimstone by God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah

So what is the evidence for Sodom actually occurring? Well first what should we expect to find? Archeology for sure should be able to help us. We should be able to find remnants of a city which was destroyed by incendiary means. This same city should be in close proximity to 4 other cities of the same era.

This city should have been inhabited BEFORE a certain time period.


We should also check to see if there are non-biblical attestations of this event. HOWEVER, because this occurred during a time when writing hadn’t even been developed yet, this should not be a requirement.


We might be able to use anthropology to determine if the inhabitants of these cities lived in a culture of sexual promiscuity, thievery and other immoral (unbiblical) actions.


I think this covers what we might be able to use so lets start looking.

ARCHEOLOGY -

There are several competing sites for Sodom. I have found one which meets all the criteria very well in my opinion.

From Wiki
One candidate for Sodom is a site known as Bab edh-Dhra. Bab edh-Dhra was an Early Bronze Age city located near the Dead Sea, and bitumen and petroleum deposits have been found in the area, which contain sulfur and natural gas. The theory is that an earthquake opened a nearby pocket of natural gas. This gas drifted up and reacted with fires burning in the city. As a result, the city was devastated.

From this source we can determine many things.

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~semitic/wl/ ... hdhra.html

Lapp's excavations in 1965 were the first to show that Bâb edh-Dhrâ‘ was an Early Bronze Age settlement rather than a specialized ceremonial site, as many had speculated prior to his work (P. Lapp 1966: 560-61; for references to the prevalent interpretation of the site as a distinctive one accompanied by cultic activities see Schaub and Rast 1989: 17-18). Following upon Lapp's discoveries, the several seasons of the Expedition to the Dead Sea Plain (EDSP) have uncovered a great deal more evidence for the history of Early Bronze settlement here. Therefore, it now has to be recognized that if a special significance is to be ascribed to Bâb edh-Dhrâ‘ it is not because it was an unusual site in antiquity but rather because it provides a unique case of Early Bronze Age urbanism in an exceptional part of the country, the isolated environment along the southeastern Dead Sea Plain.

1) This site was inhabited at the same approx time as the story in Genesis would indicate.

2) This site is located is located near the dead sea.

From this source we can determine a few things as well.

http://www.nd.edu/~edsp/babedhdrah.html
Four of these buildings had extensive burn areas with remnants of burnt roof beams and fragments of wattle and daub roofing. Although there were a few intrusive later burials associated with late EB III and EB IV pottery, the destruction of the buildings coincides with the end of the main EB III occupation of the walled town.

Notice that at the height of the city, it was destroyed suddenly with massive fire. This fire was able to scorch even the adobe the buildings were made of.

Although interpretation of the latest EB occupation at Bab edh-Dhra' remains problematical, particularly with regard to the critical question of continuity in population with the EB III town dwellers, the settlement pattern of an open village seems clear. The EDSP has established the rather solid conclusion regarding EB IV at Bab edh-Dhra', that EB IV occupation is mostly absent from the town site, with the exception of the special area in Field XVI, and that most of the occupation seems to have taken place away from the ruined remains of the town.

From this we can determine that the destruction of the city was total. The populace was basically gone and the survivors of the fire moved to a more remote location and rebuilt a much smaller community.

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_ ... 3W0903.pdf

While this source is Christian, he is an archeologist and he has done excavations in and around Bab Edh-Dhra. He also cites numerous other archeologists who concur with his findings. ALSO his findings match up with other secular sources, although his have greater detail about the destruction and less about the tombs.

I can't cut and paste from this source so I will allow you to read for yourselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bab_edh-Dhra
Bab edh-Dhra (bāb al-dhrā' ) is the site of an Early Bronze Age city, located near the Dead Sea, in Wadi Araba, forwarded as a candidate for the location of Biblical Sodom.

Bitumen and petroleum deposits have been found in the area, which contain sulfur and natural gas (as such deposits normally do), and one theory suggests that a pocket of natural gas led to the incineration of the city.

This Wiki site is corroborated by other sites. Just Google petroleum at Bab edh-Dhra and you get plenty of sources.

This source gives a plausible solution to the cause of a great fire in a city in the middle of a river plain constructed mostly of clay or adobe.




What have we found so far?

1) Bab Edh-Dhra is near the dead sea

2) Bab Edh-Dhra is near 4 other cities

3) Bab Edh-Dhra was inhabited and at its height during the timeframe associated with genesis.

4) Bab Edh-Dhra was suddenly and completely destroyed.

5) Bab Edh-Dhra was destroyed by fire

6) This fire could have easily been caused by natural resources.

Now I have compiled MOST of this information from non-biblical, non-Christian sources. The foundations funding most of the research I gleaned this information from are plenty secular and reputable.

The Expedition to the Dead Sea Plain Sea is affiliated with the American Schools of Oriental Research and has been funded by grants from the National Endowment for the Humanities, the National Geographic Society, and by contributions from several corporations and foundations as well as a group of individuals. Several institutions, including Valparaiso U., Indiana U. of Pennsylvania, St.John's U., in Collegeville, Kansas State U., the U. of Montana, Harvard Semitic Museum , U. of Pittsburgh, and Carnegie Museum of Pittsburgh have contributed staff and financial support. The Bab edh-Dhra' cemetery project is sponsored jointly by ASOR and the Smithsonian Institution, with Donald Ortner as coordinator.

So now we can see that this "story" is at the very least plausible. I don't have time right now to research the other areas I mentioned as this took about 4 hours. Sorry but I hope I completed my task for the most part.

Give me a bit of time with this one. Gotta get some sleep before next 36 hour shift, so I will research it on shift tonight to verify.

[Confused]

Sorry for coming in so late Confused. I hope I can get back to your OP.

5) destruction of various cities by other than natural disasters (ie volcanos, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados.

Lets take this one.

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

Lets examine Sodom in great detail. First some background.

Sodom was one of a group of five towns, the Pentapolis (Wisdom 10:6): Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Bela -- also called Zoar (Genesis 19:22). The Pentapolis region is also collectively referred to as "the Cities of the Plain" (Genesis 13:12) since they were all sited on the plain of the Jordan River, in an area that constituted the southern limit of the lands of the Canaanites (Genesis 10:19). Lot, a nephew of Abram (Abraham) chose to live in Sodom, because of the proximity of good grazing for his flocks (Genesis 13:5-11).

In Genesis 18, God informs Abraham that he plans to destroy the city of Sodom because of its gross immorality. Abraham pleads with God not to destroy Sodom, and God agrees that he would not destroy the city if there were 50 righteous people in it, then 45, then 30, then 20, or even ten righteous people. The Lord's two angels only found one righteous person living in Sodom, Abraham's nephew Lot. Consequently, God follows through with his plans to destroy the city.

In Genesis 19:4-5, the final episode in the story of Sodom is described as the angels visit Lot to warn him to flee:

4. When they had not yet retired, and the people of the city, the people of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, the entire populace from every end[of the city].
5. And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, and let us be intimate with them." (Judaica Press.)

Lot refused to give the visiting angels to the men of Sodom and instead offered them his two daughters. The men refused to accept this compromise. The men were struck with blindness, allowing Lot and his family, who were then instructed to leave the city, to escape, and Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with fire and brimstone by God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah

So what is the evidence for Sodom actually occurring? Well first what should we expect to find? Archeology for sure should be able to help us. We should be able to find remnants of a city which was destroyed by incendiary means. This same city should be in close proximity to 4 other cities of the same era.

This city should have been inhabited BEFORE a certain time period.


We should also check to see if there are non-biblical attestations of this event. HOWEVER, because this occurred during a time when writing hadn’t even been developed yet, this should not be a requirement.


We might be able to use anthropology to determine if the inhabitants of these cities lived in a culture of sexual promiscuity, thievery and other immoral (unbiblical) actions.


I think this covers what we might be able to use so lets start looking.

ARCHEOLOGY -

There are several competing sites for Sodom. I have found one which meets all the criteria very well in my opinion.

From Wiki
One candidate for Sodom is a site known as Bab edh-Dhra. Bab edh-Dhra was an Early Bronze Age city located near the Dead Sea, and bitumen and petroleum deposits have been found in the area, which contain sulfur and natural gas. The theory is that an earthquake opened a nearby pocket of natural gas. This gas drifted up and reacted with fires burning in the city. As a result, the city was devastated.

From this source we can determine many things.

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~semitic/wl/ ... hdhra.html

Lapp's excavations in 1965 were the first to show that Bâb edh-Dhrâ‘ was an Early Bronze Age settlement rather than a specialized ceremonial site, as many had speculated prior to his work (P. Lapp 1966: 560-61; for references to the prevalent interpretation of the site as a distinctive one accompanied by cultic activities see Schaub and Rast 1989: 17-18). Following upon Lapp's discoveries, the several seasons of the Expedition to the Dead Sea Plain (EDSP) have uncovered a great deal more evidence for the history of Early Bronze settlement here. Therefore, it now has to be recognized that if a special significance is to be ascribed to Bâb edh-Dhrâ‘ it is not because it was an unusual site in antiquity but rather because it provides a unique case of Early Bronze Age urbanism in an exceptional part of the country, the isolated environment along the southeastern Dead Sea Plain.

1) This site was inhabited at the same approx time as the story in Genesis would indicate.

2) This site is located is located near the dead sea.

From this source we can determine a few things as well.

http://www.nd.edu/~edsp/babedhdrah.html
Four of these buildings had extensive burn areas with remnants of burnt roof beams and fragments of wattle and daub roofing. Although there were a few intrusive later burials associated with late EB III and EB IV pottery, the destruction of the buildings coincides with the end of the main EB III occupation of the walled town.

Notice that at the height of the city, it was destroyed suddenly with massive fire. This fire was able to scorch even the adobe the buildings were made of.

Although interpretation of the latest EB occupation at Bab edh-Dhra' remains problematical, particularly with regard to the critical question of continuity in population with the EB III town dwellers, the settlement pattern of an open village seems clear. The EDSP has established the rather solid conclusion regarding EB IV at Bab edh-Dhra', that EB IV occupation is mostly absent from the town site, with the exception of the special area in Field XVI, and that most of the occupation seems to have taken place away from the ruined remains of the town.

From this we can determine that the destruction of the city was total. The populace was basically gone and the survivors of the fire moved to a more remote location and rebuilt a much smaller community.

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_ ... 3W0903.pdf

While this source is Christian, he is an archeologist and he has done excavations in and around Bab Edh-Dhra. He also cites numerous other archeologists who concur with his findings. ALSO his findings match up with other secular sources, although his have greater detail about the destruction and less about the tombs.

I can't cut and paste from this source so I will allow you to read for yourselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bab_edh-Dhra
Bab edh-Dhra (bāb al-dhrā' ) is the site of an Early Bronze Age city, located near the Dead Sea, in Wadi Araba, forwarded as a candidate for the location of Biblical Sodom.

Bitumen and petroleum deposits have been found in the area, which contain sulfur and natural gas (as such deposits normally do), and one theory suggests that a pocket of natural gas led to the incineration of the city.

This Wiki site is corroborated by other sites. Just Google petroleum at Bab edh-Dhra and you get plenty of sources.

This source gives a plausible solution to the cause of a great fire in a city in the middle of a river plain constructed mostly of clay or adobe.




What have we found so far?

1) Bab Edh-Dhra is near the dead sea

2) Bab Edh-Dhra is near 4 other cities

3) Bab Edh-Dhra was inhabited and at its height during the timeframe associated with genesis.

4) Bab Edh-Dhra was suddenly and completely destroyed.

5) Bab Edh-Dhra was destroyed by fire

6) This fire could have easily been caused by natural resources.

Now I have compiled MOST of this information from non-biblical, non-Christian sources. The foundations funding most of the research I gleaned this information from are plenty secular and reputable.

The Expedition to the Dead Sea Plain Sea is affiliated with the American Schools of Oriental Research and has been funded by grants from the National Endowment for the Humanities, the National Geographic Society, and by contributions from several corporations and foundations as well as a group of individuals. Several institutions, including Valparaiso U., Indiana U. of Pennsylvania, St.John's U., in Collegeville, Kansas State U., the U. of Montana, Harvard Semitic Museum , U. of Pittsburgh, and Carnegie Museum of Pittsburgh have contributed staff and financial support. The Bab edh-Dhra' cemetery project is sponsored jointly by ASOR and the Smithsonian Institution, with Donald Ortner as coordinator.

So now we can see that this "story" is at the very least plausible. I don't have time right now to research the other areas I mentioned as this took about 4 hours. Sorry but I hope I completed my task for the most part.

Sorry, this is going to be a very very long post:

http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc040297.html

CAMBRIDGE CONFERENCE MAKES FRONTPAGE HEADLINES

The first victim of an election campaign is always the
truth, so the saying goes. As Britain finds herself in
the midst of general election fever (if this is the
right word for a comparatively composed affair), even an
article on the forthcoming 2nd Cambridge Conference has
fallen victim to accurate reporting.

Last week, inspired by Nigel Hawkes TIMES' article and
the Reverend R Dormandy's letter to the editor of THE
TIMES ("Divine Intervention?", The Times, 12 March 1997),
Geoffrey Lean, the environment correspondent of the
INDEPENDENT ON SUNDAY, wrote a lengthy feature article
about the Cambridge Conference. On Easter Sunday, his
article appeared on the frontpage of this national
Sunday paper. During the editing process, however, it was
cut to such an extend that parts of its contents became
rather misleading. So, what had happened?

Unexpectedly (but, I should add, not surprisingly), the
chairman of the Scottish Tory party, who was to stand as
a candidate for the only save Tory seat in Scotland,
resigned because of an alleged (homo)sexual affair with
his private secretary (I have always wondered who
invented the nonsensical saying, "No Sex please, we're
British").

Well, whatever the case, the 'scandal' also hit the
frontpages of the Sunday papers. Consequently, Geoffrey
Lean's article was considerably revised and shortened by
the frontpage editor (who, by the way, is also
responsible for the rather sensationalised headline).

Please find attached i) the Independent on Sunday article
and ii) my letter to the editor below. The parts deleted
by the sub-editor are in brackets.

Benny J Peiser
-------------------------------------------------------

INDEPENDENT ON SUNDAY, 30 March 1997

COMET DESTROYED SODOM AND GOMORRAH

Sodom and Gomorrah may have been destroyed by debris from
a comet, startling new archaeological and astronomical
research suggests. Another bombardment from space may
have brought on the Dark Ages.

The research, to be presented to a special conference at
Cambridge University this summer, provides dramatic
evidence for an extraterrestrial cause for the wholesale
collapse of several civilisations around 2200 BC.
[Experts believe that the Biblical account of the
destruction of the 'Cities of the Plain' may be an early
description of what happened.]

The conference, on natural catastrophes during Bronze Age
civilisations, will bring together astronomers,
archaeologists, geologists and other scientists to try to
find an explanation for the near-simultaneous fall of the
Old Kingdom of Ancient Egypt, the Sumerian civilisation
in Mesopotamia and the Harrapin (sic) Civilisation of the
Indus Valley. In all, some 40 cities are thought to have
disappeared [about the same time] in a series of
catastrophes.

Astronomers calculate that the Earth is bombarded by a
particularly dense storm of meteorites over a couple of
centuries every 2,500 years - the last two blitzes
occurred around 2200-2000 BC and 400-600 AD.

[A leading] French archaeologist, Dr Marie-Agnes Courty,
will provide powerful [corroborative] evidence [at the
conference]: samples dating from around 2200 BC [that she
has taken] from three [separate regions in the] Middle
East(ern regions), all contain a [calcite] material found
(only) in meteorites [but not on Earth].

Tradition ascribes the destruction of Cities of the Plain
[- thought to have been south of the Dead Sea - ] to
around the same period. Genesis [19 verse 24] describes
how "the Lord rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone
and fire from the Lord of heaven" - a [plausible] fair
description of a meteorite storm.

Dr Benny Peiser, of Liverpool John Moores University [who
is organising the conference], says the destruction [of
civilisations] is clear from the archaeological record
and that cometary debris could explain it. [Previous
explanations, like a massive earthquake or volcanic
eruption, could not account for destruction over such a
vast area.The meteorites would have exploded above the
ground with the power of scores of nuclear bombs: one
devastated a vast area of Siberia in 1908; another did so
in Brazil in 1930. And in 1994 the comet Shoemaker-Levy
broke up into 21 pieces and smashed into Jupiter.

Dr Peiser is sceptical about Biblical chronologies but
thinks the story of Sodom and Gomorrah could be an early
description of the impact of the debris, "a record of a
real natural event that ended up as a Biblical
tradition."

Prof Mark Bailey, Director of the Armagh Observatory,
agrees: "If I were to put money on it, I would bet that
there is a wealth of information on astronomical
phenomena in legends and myths and such written records
as the Bible."]

Dr Victor Clube, senior research fellow in astrophysics
at Oxford [University, takes the same view, saying that]
(says) the Biblical account accords [well] with
[descriptions of] similar events in Babylonian records.
He has calculated that the Earth [would have] passed
through a [particularly dense] cloud of debris - the
Taurid meteorite stream - thought to have resulted from
the break-up of a comet 40,000 years ago, between 2200 BC
and 2000 BC.

This happened again [he says] between 400 and 600 AD and
may have led to the fall of Rome and the Dark Ages (when)
contemporaries report "fires of the righteous vengeance"
falling from the sky [while evidence from tree rings
suggests that a particularly bad impact may have stunted
growth for a decade in the mid sixth century.

The Taurid stream is not due to return until the end of
the next millennium, but Dr Clube says that similar
bombardment from other debris could occur in the
meantime. He warns: "There is danger in the sky and
people would be right to be afraid".

-----------------------------------------------------

Letter to the Editor
Independent on Sunday
London E14 5DL

Dear Sir

I appreciate your interest in the forthcoming Cambridge
conference on Natural Catastrophes during Bronze Age
Civilisations ("Comet debris destroyed Sodom and
Gomorrah", 30 March). A number of inaccuracies,
presumably as a result of the editing process, have,
however, crept into the otherwise good article. I would
therefore like to make the following clarifications:

Whilst the biblical account of the destruction of Sodom
and Gomorrah appears to suggest some kind of catastrophic
meteorite shower, there is no agreement as to the exact
location of these two Middle Eastern sites. The
destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah - if it really did
happen - was, after all, not a 'divine punishment' by a
vengeful God, but a tragic disaster which affected a l l
major population centres in large parts of Asia, Africa
and Europe at the end of the 3rd millennium BC.

Rather than focusing on some selected biblical events,
the 2nd SIS Cambridge Conference will discuss the
widespread collapses of Bronze Age civilisations in many
parts of the world. It is these unambiguous calamities -
and not the literary tradition of Sodom and Gomorrah -
which have been clearly detected in the archaeological
record.

In fact an increasing number of astronomers,
archaeologists and climatologists have suggested that
these catastrophes might have been triggered by cosmic
impacts, particularly the disaster around 2200 BC which
brought down the first high civilisations of mankind. The
number of Early Bronze Age sites destroyed in this
interconnected catastrophe is thought to be more than
500. Previous explanations, like massive earthquakes or
volcanic eruptions, are unable to account for destruction
levels covering such a vast area.

Dr Marie-Agnes Courty has indeed discovered conspicuous
material from samples in Middle Eastern destruction
layers dating to 2200 BC. However, I should like to
stress that the exact derivation of this material is
still undetermined. Thus, whilst there is increasing
astronomical and archaeological evidence to bolster the
'giant comet' theory of Bronze Age collapses, I wold like
to emphasize that we are still dealing with a scientific
hypothesis which needs further scrutiny.

Yours faithfully

Dr Benny J Peiser
Liverpool John Moores University

Here, we don't dispute the validity of the account of Sodom. Instead, it gives a natural explanation.