The age of miracles

[Athetotheist]

It's not really my intention to make a whole thread out of this; I just mean to pose a question as a point of curiosity: Can anyone refer me to textual evidence that the age of miracles was to end with the passing of the apostles?

[Eloi]

The Christians in the First Century were living in an end of an old system, the judaic system.

1 Cor. 10:8 Neither let us practice fornication, as some of them committed fornication, only to fall, twenty-three thousand [of them] in one day. 9 Neither let us put Jehovah to the test, as some of them put [him] to the test, only to perish by the serpents. 10 Neither be murmurers, just as some of them murmured, only to perish by the destroyer. 11 Now these things went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived.

That is the end, "the last days", mentioned here:

Acts 2:15 These people are, in fact, not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. 16 On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel: 17 ‘“And in the last days,� God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams, 18 and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 And I will give wonders in heaven above and signs on earth below—blood and fire and clouds of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah comes. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.�’

In that time the holy spirit was passed by imposition of hands, and the imposer had to be an apostle, or someone who got the spirit from heaven or directly from someone who did. When those who got the spirit from heaven died, there was no one else to transmit the spirit to another Christian. The Pentecost in 33 was a one time event. Those miracles ended, and there were not more by the second century. Not even the liders of the Christian congregations by the second half of the Second Century did miracles; no one else wrote an inspired book, etc ... There was not that kind of works any more, and so until our times. Jesus did not say that Christians would be recognized by their miraculous works at this time, but by other characteristics like love and deeds.

That was not the last end, the one that will change the whole planet and people on it. Before that end arrives, there were suppose to be ended the miracolous gifts by the holy spirit:

1 Cor. 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Note that what is associated with the partial things is THE KNOWLEDGE. Christians today have (or can have) a very more complete knowledge than the one Paul had, because we have the whole Scriptures, we can read them, compare, learn much more about too many things that Christians in the First Century understood. That knowledge can be called "complete", and the knowledge in the first century was "partial" ... as temporary were all the miraculous works they did by the holy spirit they received from heaven, since it was Jesus who sent it TO THEM specifically.

Note that Paul mentioned three things that would remain when the temporary ones "will be done away with": faith, love and hope; note specially HOPE. Paul saying that HOPE would be one remaining thing when the temporary ones will disappear, means that those temporary things (included the special miraculous gifts by the holy spirit) would not be present until THE END ... That is because when somebody has HOPE, is still waiting for the promise.

Rom. 8:24 For we were saved in [this] hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep on waiting for it with endurance.

That means that in this times we are not supposed to practice the same miraculous works done in the first century. In our times, those works can be a totally diferent thing:

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

2 Thess. 2:3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god� or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do YOU not remember that, while I was yet with YOU, I used to tell YOU these things?
6 And so now YOU know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Note the contrast between those miracles on one side and the righteousness and love for the truth on the other one.

[2timothy316]

I see no scripture indicating that miracles had an expiration date. Maybe they are few and far because we believe we can't do them? "your belief has saved you. Go and sin no more."

Not miracles ending, but "gifts of prophecy" will end. This means people given power to perform miracles would end.

[brianbbs67]

I see no scripture indicating that miracles had an expiration date. Maybe they are few and far because we believe we can't do them? "your belief has saved you. Go and sin no more."

Not miracles ending, but "gifts of prophecy" will end. This means people given power to perform miracles would end.

I can't agree. I have had dreams and visions that have come true. I told others when I had them and then they came to pass. Sometimes, insignificant, sometimes not. Mostly, they are unremarkable. I dream I am at a place and time and later I am at that place.(without seeking it because it was a dream). I believe there is a lot more going on here than many see or want to admit.

[2timothy316]

I see no scripture indicating that miracles had an expiration date. Maybe they are few and far because we believe we can't do them? "your belief has saved you. Go and sin no more."

Not miracles ending, but "gifts of prophecy" will end. This means people given power to perform miracles would end.

I can't agree. I have had dreams and visions that have come true. I told others when I had them and then they came to pass. Sometimes, insignificant, sometimes not. Mostly, they are unremarkable. I dream I am at a place and time and later I am at that place.(without seeking it because it was a dream). I believe there is a lot more going on here than many see or want to admit.

Yet what about the ones that didn't come true, what is the ratio of those that came true to those that didn't. 10%? 50%? A person with true gifts would be right 100% of the time.

Also, how do you know they are from God? Demons are known to foretell the future as well. (Acts 16:16)

The apostles drew thousands to the teachings of Jesus and created whole congregations throughout the ancient world. Have your powers does this? What fruitage comes from your dreams and visions?

So your claim to have visions is not encouraging, its actually rather disturbing. I am finding your 'powers' fall well short of what the apostles did.

You say you have visions, so does a person I know that lives on the street. She is a mushroom user and sees things all the time. Her visions are from God too, or so she says. I also had a person tell me he hears God speak to him when he smokes marijuana. What separates you from the countless others that claim to get visions from God? Because so far, you vision seers have not been seeing the same things.

If you want an example of a person who saw a real vision read the book of Ezekiel. His visions reveal Earth shaking prophecies. Any vision that is not like Ezekiel's vision is just a daydream.

As far as dreams, lets say a person lives to be 80 years old. That means they would have slept somewhere around 29,200 times. (not including naps). Let pretend that this person had dreams every night. Certainly one of those dreams came true. Does that make them a person with gifts from God? Hardly.

An example of a person with dreams from God would be Daniel. Who also foretold of Earth shaking predictions.

[brianbbs67]

I see no scripture indicating that miracles had an expiration date. Maybe they are few and far because we believe we can't do them? "your belief has saved you. Go and sin no more."

Not miracles ending, but "gifts of prophecy" will end. This means people given power to perform miracles would end.

I can't agree. I have had dreams and visions that have come true. I told others when I had them and then they came to pass. Sometimes, insignificant, sometimes not. Mostly, they are unremarkable. I dream I am at a place and time and later I am at that place.(without seeking it because it was a dream). I believe there is a lot more going on here than many see or want to admit.

Yet what about the ones that didn't come true, what is the ratio of those that came true to those that didn't. 10%? 50%? A person with true gifts would be right 100% of the time.

Also, how do you know they are from God? Demons are known to foretell the future as well. (Acts 16:16)

The apostles drew thousands to the teachings of Jesus and created whole congregations throughout the ancient world. Have your powers does this? What fruitage comes from your dreams and visions?

So your claim to have visions is not encouraging, its actually rather disturbing. I am finding your 'powers' fall well short of what the apostles did.

You say you have visions, so does a person I know that lives on the street. She is a mushroom user and sees things all the time. Her visions are from God too, or so she says. I also had a person tell me he hears God speak to him when he smokes marijuana. What separates you from the countless others that claim to get visions from God? Because so far, you vision seers have not been seeing the same things.

If you want an example of a person who saw a real vision read the book of Ezekiel. His visions reveal Earth shaking prophecies. Any vision that is not like Ezekiel's vision is just a daydream.

As far as dreams, lets say a person lives to be 80 years old. That means they would have slept somewhere around 29,200 times. (not including naps). Let pretend that this person had dreams every night. Certainly one of those dreams came true. Does that make them a person with gifts from God? Hardly.

An example of a person with dreams from God would be Daniel. Who also foretold of Earth shaking predictions.

Did I say my dreams are all from God as prophecy? No. I have no clue where dreams come from. I am not a prophet nor do I want to be. I don't believe I have any powers, either. That is utter nonsense.

I have had enough things come to pass to realize there's a lot more going on in this world than most would think. That was my only point. People having dreams and visions still occurs. Some one having 100% accuracy in them, I have not seen. That would be a prophet.

Daniel interpreted dreams that came true. So, did Joseph from the Egyptian Pharaoh. Neither of the people dreaming were prophets. They were people who had dreams that came to pass. I can't believe you have never dreamed about something that happened later in your life and then it happened and you remembered(this is what that dream meant)? Surely, everyone has done this.

[2timothy316]

Daniel interpreted dreams that came true. So, did Joseph from the Egyptian Pharaoh. Neither of the people dreaming were prophets. They were people who had dreams that came to pass. I can't believe you have never dreamed about something that happened later in your life and then it happened and you remembered(this is what that dream meant)? Surely, everyone has done this.

"This is what that dream meant" to me is a dangerous beginning to a sentence. Everyone from priests, to spirit mediums, to many ancient religions and even psychologist have attempted to figure out what dreams mean.

The only thing I have come to accept is that a human's dreams are connected to their emotions. Like a person has an important meeting the next day and thus has dreams that they are in a car crash, due to fear of performing badly at that meeting. This is simply an emotionally driven dream as all human dreams are and if a person keeps with that they will be fine. Yet let say the next day the meeting goes very badly for the person and they look back to the dream as some sort of omen, then that is a serious problem.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 says, "anyone who employs divination...anyone who looks for omens...a fortune-teller....For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah..."

I would not make friends with a person that thinks their dreams foretell the future.

[tam]

Peace to you both,

Daniel interpreted dreams that came true. So, did Joseph from the Egyptian Pharaoh. Neither of the people dreaming were prophets. They were people who had dreams that came to pass. I can't believe you have never dreamed about something that happened later in your life and then it happened and you remembered(this is what that dream meant)? Surely, everyone has done this.

"This is what that dream meant" to me is a dangerous beginning to a sentence. Everyone from priests, to spirit mediums, to many ancient religions and even psychologist have attempted to figure out what dreams mean.

The only thing I have come to accept is that a human's dreams are connected to their emotions. Like a person has an important meeting the next day and thus has dreams that they are in a car crash, due to fear of performing badly at that meeting. This is simply an emotionally driven dream as all human dreams are and if a person keeps with that they will be fine. Yet let say the next day the meeting goes very badly for the person and they look back to the dream as some sort of omen, then that is a serious problem.

God can speak to man in his dreams (from Job 33):

For God does speak—now one way, now another—
though no one perceives it.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on people
as they slumber in their beds,
16 he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
17 to turn them from wrongdoing
and keep them from pride,
18 to preserve them from the pit,
their lives from perishing by the sword.



Not every dream is from God or His Son of course. But it is one way that God (and His Son) speak to men. As for interpretation of visions and dreams, interpretation does not belong to man. Daniel did not interpret dreams himself. Daniel shared as he was given from God. If we are given a vision/dream, we must listen for Christ Jaheshua to give us the meaning.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 17 by tam]
A known flawed way to read the Bible. The conclusion is drawn first and then one goes and finds scripture to support it. This is an example of eisegesis.

Job 33 is not saying God speaks to everyone through dreams. Compare any dream you have had to one spoken of in the Bible. I am certain nothing will compare. If a person dreams and wonders 'is this from God?' than it is most certainly not a dream from God. Dreams from God in the Bible affect His people in large ways and come with clear interpretation.

There is another translation of Job 33:14. (WEB)
"For God speaks once, yes twice, though man pays no attention."

So they know it's a message from God but they toss it aside. Job 33:14 doesn't mean that people didn't know where the dream came from, as some are implying.

Also Job 33:15 says that dreams fall on people but that does not necessarily mean everyone, as once again some are implying.

The context of Job 33 is Elihu reproving Job and not some person speaking to a crowd in teaching a lesson about dreams. It is more likely that Elihu is speaking of prophets. "He then said: “Hear my words, please. If there was a prophet of Jehovah among you, I would make myself known to him in a vision, and I would speak to him in a dream. " (Nu 12:6) Than these prophets deliver a message to people. Many times a warning.

Doing a vigorous examination of dreams of the Bible we see that the dreams folks have today are nothing like the dreams of the Bible. If they were then those dreams would carry great messages, the person would know the dream was from God and the dreamer would have been given clear interpretations. I know of no one that has had such dreams. Those that have claimed to have had such dreams usually end up being completely wrong or so vague it's unclear what the dream was in the first place.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 17 by tam]
A known flawed way to read the Bible. The conclusion is drawn first and then one goes and finds scripture to support it. This is an example of eisegesis.

This could be said of anything that is supported by what is written.

Job 33 is not saying God speaks to everyone through dreams.

Job 33 says that God speaks to men in dreams. Anything beyond that is going to be something you are adding to the text.

I assume that we can agree that God speaks to whomever He chooses in dreams.

Compare any dream you have had to one spoken of in the Bible. I am certain nothing will compare.

I once had three invitations to attend three different halls for the Memorial (so that I could give witness to my Lord and obey His command to eat and drink). I asked my Lord to which I should go. In my dream, my Lord showed me present at the place I was to go and among those people... and then at that Memorial, He also gave me His words to say to the speaker. The dream was a message for me, in answer to my question, but it was about bearing witness to Him and being sent where (and to whom) He said to go.



I have also been given dreams from my Lord where He teaches me truth I did not know or had not understood (or even reminding me of something I had forgotten). Sometimes these dreams are just for me, and sometimes they are given to me to share (I was once specifically commanded TO share what I had been given with the household of God).


But interpretation of dreams does not belong to us; interpretation belongs to God (and to His Son). As stated above: If we are given a vision/dream, we must listen (and also wait) for Christ Jaheshua to give us the meaning.


**


(As for testing the inspired expression which we are told to do... anything that is in conflict with what Christ Jaheshua teaches cannot be true. Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing from God and His Son will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)

If a person dreams and wonders 'is this from God?' than it is most certainly not a dream from God. Dreams from God in the Bible affect His people in large ways and come with clear interpretation.

This is not necessarily true; there is nothing wrong with asking God (or Christ since God speaks to us through His Son) if this dream is from Him. Better to ask than to just decide arbitrarily on one's own.

There is another translation of Job 33:14. (WEB)
"For God speaks once, yes twice, though man pays no attention."

This has no different meaning than what I posted from Job. Please note that God IS speaking.


Because men are not paying attention (while awake), God (or His Son) might speak to them in their dreams, where they are quiet, to warn them away from harm or sin.

So they know it's a message from God but they toss it aside.

It might be true that they know on some level that God is speaking... but the message is not something they want to hear (for whatever reason) and so they do not listen and pay no attention.

Job 33:14 doesn't mean that people didn't know where the dream came from, as some are implying.

I do not recall making a statement one way or the other that people know (or do not know). I stated only that God does speak to men in dreams, as stated here in Job.

Also Job 33:15 says that dreams fall on people but that does not necessarily mean everyone, as once again some are implying.

Regardless of how many people, it does happen.

The context of Job 33 is Elihu reproving Job and not some person speaking to a crowd in teaching a lesson about dreams. It is more likely that Elihu is speaking of prophets. "He then said: “Hear my words, please. If there was a prophet of Jehovah among you, I would make myself known to him in a vision, and I would speak to him in a dream. " (Nu 12:6) Than these prophets deliver a message to people. Many times a warning.

Saying that He would make Himself known to a prophet does not mean that He does not speak to others in dreams. Nebudchenezzer received dreams as well, did he not, which God then gave Daniel the meaning to give to the king?

My Lord (Jaheshua) also speaks to everyone. But not everyone listens to Him or recognizes His voice; some (even many) may claim that they are just hearing their own conscience. Some might even deny Him because what He says is not what their religion says. It is the same as what was written in Job, about how God speaks to men (in different ways) but they take no heed.

Christ said that His sheep would listen to His voice though.






Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Avoice]

No more miracles? You actually believe that?

The Sea of Reeds were parted during the exodus from Egypt. Would you call that a miracle?
Of course Christians say that was a miracle.

Well thats nothing compared to the miracle that is happening in our lifetime. A miracle that is prophecied in the scriptures more times than anything else. And that is the Jews returning to Israel after a 2000 year exile. Who would have believed that to happen? Thrown to all parts if the world. Discriminated against and persecuted. Not to mention the holocaust. The Jews should've disappeared long, long ago. But oh no...AGAINST ALL ODDS they have returned to their land.

"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land."


HERE IS A MIRACLE!
HERE IS WHAT A REAL FULFILLMENT IF PROPHECY LOOKS LIKE:

(clip showing three planes landing in Israel simultaneously. One from Europe. One from the USA. And one from Canada. Exiled Jews returning to Israel. Its an ongoing miracle. AS PROPHECIED