Why believe the Bible is from God?

[McCulloch]

The words of Scripture are self attesting. They cannot be "proved" to be Gods words by appeal to any higher authority. There is no higher authority. When one has the highest or absolute authority such as the Word of God, it would be subordinating the authority of Scripture to the thing to which we appeal to prove it to be Gods Word. If we ultimately appeal to human reason, or to logic, or to historical accuracy, or to scientific truth, as the authority by which Scripture is shown to be Gods Words, then we have assumed the thing to which we appealed to be a higher authority than Gods words and one that is more true or more reliable.

The question for debate: If you believe that the Bible has been given to humanity by God, why do you believe that? How is it that you came to such a conclusion? Are the reasons you have for such belief valid reasons?

[McCulloch]

Asking for reasons why Christians believe that the Bible is the Word of God is one good way to get a catalog of fallacious reasoning.

• Argumentum ad Populum (Bandwagon Fallacy, Appeal to Popularity, Argument by Consensus, Authority of the Many)
• Argumentum ad Verecundiam (Appeal to Authority, Argument from Authority, Ipse Dixit (Translation: "He, himself, said it", Latin))
  The Bible is the Word of God because {select one or more, Jesus, Paul, the Pope, the Church, my ancestors } says it is the Word of God.
• Appeal to Tradition
• Argumentum ad Consequentiam (Appeal to Consequences )
  Without the Bible society would descend into immorality and crime.
• Argumentum ad Baculum (Appeal to Force)
  If you don't believe that the Bible is the Word of God, you will end up in eternal torment.
• Argumentum ad Ignorantiam (Appeal to Ignorance, Argument from Ignorance)
  You cannot prove that the Bible is not the Word of God.
• Circulus in Probando (Begging the Question, Circular Argument)
  The Bible is the Word of God because the Bible claims to be the Word of God.
• Non Causa Pro Causa (Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy)
  The Texas sharpshooter is a fabled marksman who fires his gun randomly at the side of a barn, then paints a bullseye around the spot where the most bullet holes cluster. Usually applied to fulfilled prophesy.
• Wishful Thinking
  The Bible is the Word of God because I choose to believe that the Bible is the Word of God.
• Non Sequitur
  The Bible is the Word of God because it is accurate historically or scientifically.
• Special Pleading
  You cannot apply the rules of logic to the Bible because it is the Word of God.

Now could any who are supposed to be always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, please provide some valid reasons to believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

[Cathar1950]

What a lonely thread.

I want to know how the bible checks science.

[Christian1234]

In order to answer these questions we must look at both the internal and external evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word. The internal evidences are those things internal to the Bible itself that testify of its divine origin. One of the first internal evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in its unity. Even though it is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more that 40 authors (who came from many walks of life), the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words as God moved men in such a way that they recorded His very words.



Another of the internal evidences that indicate the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in the detailed prophecies contained within its pages. The Bible contains hundreds of detailed prophecies relating to the future of individual nations including Israel, to the future of certain cities, to the future of mankind, and to the coming of one who would be the Messiah, the Savior of not only Israel, but all who would believe in Him. Unlike the prophecies found in other religious books or those done by Nostradamus, the biblical prophecies are extremely detailed and have never failed to come true. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament alone. Not only was it foretold where He would be born and what family He would come from, but also how He would die and that He would rise again on the third day. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than by divine origin. There is no other religious book with the extent or type of predictive prophecy that the Bible has.



A third internal evidence of the divine origin of the Bible is seen in its unique authority and power. While this evidence is more subjective than the first two internal evidences, it is no less a very powerful testimony of the divine origin of the Bible. The Bible has a unique authority that is unlike any other book ever written. This authority and power are best seen in the way countless lives have been transformed by reading the Bible. Drug addicts have been cured by it, homosexuals have been set free by it, derelicts and deadbeats have been transformed by it, hardened criminals reformed by it, sinners are rebuked by it, and hate has been turned to love by reading it. The Bible does possess a dynamic and transforming power that is only possible because it is truly God’s Word.



Besides the internal evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word there are also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One of those evidences is the historicity of the Bible. Because the Bible details historical events its truthfulness and accuracy is subject to verification like any other historical documentation. Through both archaeological evidences and other written documents, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best documented book from the ancient world. The fact that the Bible accurately and truthfully records historically verifiable events is a great indication of its truthfulness when dealing with religious subjects and doctrines and helps substantiate its claim that it is the very Word of God.



Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the integrity of the human authors. As mentioned earlier, God used men from many walks of life to record His Words to us. In studying the lives of these men, there is no good reason to believe that they were not honest and sincere men. Examining their lives and the fact that they were willing to die (often excruciating deaths) for what they believed in, it quickly becomes clear that these ordinary yet honest men truly believed that God had spoken to them. The men who wrote the New Testament and many hundreds of other believers (1 Corinthians 15:6) knew the truth of their message because they had seen and spent time with Jesus Christ after He had risen from the dead. The transformation of seeing the Risen Christ had a tremendous impact on these men. They went from hiding in fear, to being willing to die for the message God had revealed to them. Their lives and deaths testify to the fact that the Bible truly is God’s Word.



A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible. Because of its importance and its claim to be the very word of God, the Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history. From early Roman Emperors like Diocletian, through communist dictators and on to modern day atheists and agonistics, the Bible has withstood and outlasted all of its attackers and is still the most widely published book in the world today.



Throughout time, skeptics have regarded the Bible as mythological, but archeology has established it as historical. Opponents have attacked its teaching as primitive and outdated, but its moral and legal concepts and teachings have had a positive influence on societies and cultures throughout the world. It continues to be attacked by science, psychology, and political movements and yet remains just as true and relevant today as it was when it was first written. It is a book that has transformed countless lives and cultures throughout the last 2000 years. No matter how its opponents try to attack, destroy, or discredit it, the Bible remains just as strong, just a true, and just as relevant after the attacks as it was before. The accuracy which has been preserved despite every attempt to corrupt, attack, or destroy it, is clear testimony to the fact that the Bible is truly God’s Word. It should not surprise us that no matter how the Bible is attacked, it always comes out unchanged and unscathed. After all, Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away” (Mark 13:31). After looking at the evidence one can say without a doubt that “Yes the Bible is truly God’s Word.”

[bernee51]

In order to answer these questions we must look at both the internal and external evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word. The internal evidences are those things internal to the Bible itself that testify of its divine origin. One of the first internal evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in its unity. Even though it is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more that 40 authors (who came from many walks of life), the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words as God moved men in such a way that they recorded His very words.

The bible is not alone in this history, The Vedas have a longer history and wide authorship.

Are they too the word of god?

I
Another of the internal evidences that indicate the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in the detailed prophecies contained within its pages. The Bible contains hundreds of detailed prophecies relating to the future of individual nations including Israel, to the future of certain cities, to the future of mankind, and to the coming of one who would be the Messiah, the Savior of not only Israel, but all who would believe in Him. Unlike the prophecies found in other religious books or those done by Nostradamus, the biblical prophecies are extremely detailed and have never failed to come true. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament alone. Not only was it foretold where He would be born and what family He would come from, but also how He would die and that He would rise again on the third day. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than by divine origin. There is no other religious book with the extent or type of predictive prophecy that the Bible has.

It is easy to write of fulfilled prophecies when you have read the prophecies. There is obviously a vestd interest in the chroniclers of the Jesus story for him to have fulfileld the prophecies, And then, oc course id the hermeneutics - how verses are interpreted to meet expectations.

A third internal evidence of the divine origin of the Bible is seen in its unique authority and power. While this evidence is more subjective than the first two internal evidences, it is no less a very powerful testimony of the divine origin of the Bible. The Bible has a unique authority that is unlike any other book ever written. This authority and power are best seen in the way countless lives have been transformed by reading the Bible. Drug addicts have been cured by it, homosexuals have been set free by it, derelicts and deadbeats have been transformed by it, hardened criminals reformed by it, sinners are rebuked by it, and hate has been turned to love by reading it. The Bible does possess a dynamic and transforming power that is only possible because it is truly God’s Word.

Countless people have had their lives transformed by the words of the Buddha, the words of Mohammed, or the words of Karl Marx. The bible is not unique in this.

I
Besides the internal evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word there are also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One of those evidences is the historicity of the Bible. Because the Bible details historical events its truthfulness and accuracy is subject to verification like any other historical documentation. Through both archaeological evidences and other written documents, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best documented book from the ancient world. The fact that the Bible accurately and truthfully records historically verifiable events is a great indication of its truthfulness when dealing with religious subjects and doctrines and helps substantiate its claim that it is the very Word of God.

It is not unusual for works of fiction to use real people and places to enhance the 'veracity' of the story. This is clearly the case in the bible.

Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the integrity of the human authors. As mentioned earlier, God used men from many walks of life to record His Words to us. In studying the lives of these men, there is no good reason to believe that they were not honest and sincere men. Examining their lives and the fact that they were willing to die (often excruciating deaths) for what they believed in, it quickly becomes clear that these ordinary yet honest men truly believed that God had spoken to them. The men who wrote the New Testament and many hundreds of other believers (1 Corinthians 15:6) knew the truth of their message because they had seen and spent time with Jesus Christ after He had risen from the dead. The transformation of seeing the Risen Christ had a tremendous impact on these men. They went from hiding in fear, to being willing to die for the message God had revealed to them. Their lives and deaths testify to the fact that the Bible truly is God’s Word.

Many have died for the words of Karl Marx.

The bible is just one of many 'sacred texts'.

[The Duke of Vandals]

Christian1234, your initial assertion that the bible offers "unity" is very strange. The bible offers a host of contradictions, inconsistancies, moral dilemmas and outright barbarism. It has been cobbled together over centuries, abridged, altered and updated to account for errors and obvious falsehoods. Even if this were not the case (which it is) a lie which is repeated over and over for 2000+ years is still a lie.

Your initial paragraph smacks of propaganda. When challenged with explaining why the bible is valid, you begin by attempting to declare it completely consistant... which is exactly what we'd expect from individuals looking to hide inconsistancies.

Your second paragraph begins talking about Jesus who's, unfortunately, not real. The gospel Jesus never existed. The mythmakers of the new testament had access to early Jewish prophecies and created a mythical godman that allegedly walked the earth decades before their writing. It's easy to make it seem like someone has fulfilled prophecies when you're writing in retrospect. We know that Mark was the first gospel written and couldn't have been written until circa 70ce. From there, it's easy to see how the prophecy fulfilling was fabricated.

Your third paragraph is just circular reasoning. "The bible is from god because the bible says it's from god". Changing people's lives in no way evidences this as tons of things changes people lives. Nothing you listed in this paragraph requires religion or god. Junkies can get clean in secular 12 step programs. Deadbeats can learn to pay their debts. etc.

Consider the following: "If you can comprehend this sentence, then The Duke of Vandals is a god!" Something claiming god that helps people doesn't evidence god, my friend.

The paragraph that followed committed what I call the Lincoln fallacy. It goes something like this:

1) Abraham Lincoln was president of the United States during the American civil war.
2) Abraham Lincoln was assassinated.
3) Abraham Lincoln was warned of his assassination by god and chose to martyr himself.

The first two assertions are verifyable historical fact. Does that historical fact prove the third assertion? Certainly not.

This is EXACTLY the sort of logic that Christians emply when they speak about the historic claims of the bible. Time and again, they attempt to hustle in unsupported claims under the auspice of supported one. And the supported claims are few and far between. As I've stated before, history doesn't support the existence of Jesus nor a host of other claims of the old testament.

Your next paragraph discusses the personhood of the authors of the bible. The assertion seeming to be "because these were good people who died for what they believed in, it must have been true. Why would anyone die for a lie?" While this sounds logical, it's (you guessed it) false.

The disciples never existed* and the idea that early Christians were persecuted is highly exagerated. The Roman empire existed for about 2000 years and persecuted Christians for fewer than 13 of them. The Church existed for about the same amount of time and has persecuted non-Christians for ALL of it's 2000 years.

I'm sure Scientologists are convinced that L. Ron Hubbard was a nice person who had their well being in mind and would have died for Scientology if given the opportunity. Does that make you want to bow down to Xenu and Tom Cruise?

A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible.

This one made me LOL. It tells me you don't have a very clear understanding of history. First off, the Roman empire was barely aware of Christianity as anything but an offshoot of Judaism before it was too late. By the time of Constantine, the church had entrenched itself. For CENTURIES, Christians were in the habit of MURDERING non-Christians or Christians who disagreed with the church's brand of Christianity. Yet today, we have modern day Christians making it seem as though Christianity is the persecuted instead of the persecutor. I'm sorry, but your assertion is backed by nothing save your church's fiction.

Your final paragraph was little more than a restatement of the propaganda you presented.


*http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/apostles.html

[Greatest I Am]

The words of Scripture are self attesting. They cannot be "proved" to be Gods words by appeal to any higher authority. There is no higher authority. When one has the highest or absolute authority such as the Word of God, it would be subordinating the authority of Scripture to the thing to which we appeal to prove it to be Gods Word. If we ultimately appeal to human reason, or to logic, or to historical accuracy, or to scientific truth, as the authority by which Scripture is shown to be Gods Words, then we have assumed the thing to which we appealed to be a higher authority than Gods words and one that is more true or more reliable.

The question for debate: If you believe that the Bible has been given to humanity by God, why do you believe that? How is it that you came to such a conclusion? Are the reasons you have for such belief valid reasons?

The Bible, in and of itself is not enough to make anyone believe.
As a former non-believer I was at the point of rejecting the Bible outright and looking elsewhere for God when He allowed me to see Him.
If the Bible can lead me to God then It should be able to do the same for others. Questioning the Bible and making sense of It is what leads to God.

The Bible is still the best way to find God. The final judgement is left to God but in the meantime it is up to us to judge what is truth and what is not. Logic is in the Bible when we rearrange a few things and base our judgement on what we think Jesus would have done. Jesus may not stand between us and God but He knew what God wanted. He conveyed this information the best way He could.
It is now for us to work with His words and find the same path to God.

To reject the Bible is to reject the idea of prophets and shamans and all those who have contributed to It's formation. This would mean that we have no faith in God and have no faith in man to record history. If that is the case then one in left with the belief of nothing. Not a good place to be.

Perhaps my being so close to that position is why God chose to allow my communication with Him.
I hope the rest of you do not find yourself in that same position. Knowing God is a two edged sword. It has good points, no doubt. It also has responsibility and duty which is the other side. Pleasure and pain. In balance.

Regards
DL

[Easyrider]

The Duke of Vandals said: Your second paragraph begins talking about Jesus who's, unfortunately, not real. The gospel Jesus never existed. The mythmakers of the new testament had access to early Jewish prophecies and created a mythical godman that allegedly walked the earth decades before their writing.

Nice theory. Void of any credible evidence, though. Can Jesus make the sun go dark too, as was verified by extra-biblical individuals?

The Duke of Vandals said: We know that Mark was the first gospel written and couldn't have been written until circa 70ce. From there, it's easy to see how the prophecy fulfilling was fabricated.

Only if you were willfully ignorant of historical testimony would you conclude that.

The second-century writer Papias shares the following concerning Matthew: Matthew made an arrangement of the oracles in the Hebrew language, and each translated them as he was able...

Were you familiar with Eusebius (who quotes Origen), you would know that "the first (Gospel) was written by Matthew...and was prepared for the converts from Judaism" (Ecclesiastical History, 6:25). There is also additional evidence that it was originally written in Hebrew. Eusebius quotes Papias as stating, “"Matthew put together the oracles in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could." Irenaeus wrote, "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church."

The other Achilles Heel flaw in your thinking is that just because something was written circa 70 AD, then somehow it was just created in 70 AD. Which means that somehow any eyewitness to Jesus, who wrote years later, must have recreated either a memory or fashioned a pack of lies, instead of writing down what he actually experienced years earlier. Such thinking is illogical and untenable.

[MrWhy]

The Bible, in and of itself is not enough to make anyone believe. As a former non-believer I was at the point of rejecting the Bible outright and looking elsewhere for God when He allowed me to see Him. If the Bible can lead me to God then It should be able to do the same for others. Questioning the Bible and making sense of It is what leads to God.

No, the Bible is not enough, and what else is there that points to the Christian, or any other definition of god? The fact that you were looking is important. When we look hard and long enough we often find what we are looking for. It's a frequently found feature in our species. This is not evidence itself, unless it produces good evidence. It's the nonsense of the Bible that leads many away from it. The complete package only make sense if your desire is strong enough to ignore the absence of evidence about the pivotal question.

The Bible is still the best way to find God. The final judgement is left to God but in the meantime it is up to us to judge what is truth and what is not. Logic is in the Bible when we rearrange a few things and base our judgement on what we think Jesus would have done. Jesus may not stand between us and God but He knew what God wanted. He conveyed this information the best way He could.
It is now for us to work with His words and find the same path to God.

Rearranging things is how prophecy, and miracles are found were they don't exist. It's belief in the prophecy and miracle stories that convince some that the Bible is the revelation of a god. Without those accounts, the Bible could have been written by people without any god input.

To reject the Bible is to reject the idea of prophets and shamans and all those who have contributed to It's formation. This would mean that we have no faith in God and have no faith in man to record history. If that is the case then one in left with the belief of nothing. Not a good place to be.

This is the main reason to reject the Bible. None of the prophecy stories hold up under detail analysis. No real prophecies or validated miracle means it is the sole creation of mortal humans.

It would be rare for any thinking person to believe in nothing. There are millions who do not believe in a creator god, and many get along very well. You might ask yourself how they do that and you don't.

Perhaps my being so close to that position is why God chose to allow my communication with Him.

How do you know you communicated with a god? How can you know it was not a two way conversation, born of strong desire, that occurred only in your imagination?

[Cathar1950]

Nice theory. Void of any credible evidence, though. Can Jesus make the sun go dark too, as was verified by extra-biblical individuals?

Only if you were willfully ignorant of historical testimony would you conclude that.

The second-century writer Papias shares the following concerning Matthew: Matthew made an arrangement of the oracles in the Hebrew language, and each translated them as he was able...

Were you familiar with Eusebius (who quotes Origen), you would know that "the first (Gospel) was written by Matthew...and was prepared for the converts from Judaism" (Ecclesiastical History, 6:25). There is also additional evidence that it was originally written in Hebrew. Eusebius quotes Papias as stating, “"Matthew put together the oracles in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could." Irenaeus wrote, "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church."

The other Achilles Heel flaw in your thinking is that just because something was written circa 70 AD, then somehow it was just created in 70 AD. Which means that somehow any eyewitness to Jesus, who wrote years later, must have recreated either a memory or fashioned a pack of lies, instead of writing down what he actually experienced years earlier. Such thinking is illogical and untenable.

Most scholars think Mark was first and Eusebius was wrong.
There is every reason to believe Matthew and Luke used Mark at least after the 80’s and 90’s when the Christians were being kicked out mostly due to making Jesus God as they regrouped after the war. I tend to think they were later.
Matthew does not give the appearance of having been written in Hebrew and has more then a list of sayings, oracles or teachings. It is a remake of Mark with Jesus as the New Moses. There is valid doubt that is what Eusebius quoting Origen quoting Papias Matthew is the same writing. We also don’t know if the quote from the quote from the quote is Mark either.
What is illogical and untenable is your insistence that they are eyewitness accounts and memories when they are traditions and stories.

Nice theory. Void of any credible evidence, though. Can Jesus make the sun go dark too, as was verified by extra-biblical individuals?

Jesus didn’t make the sun go dark because he was dead and had not be resurrected, taken up, transformed or had given visionary appearances.
Also we have gone over the dark sun in other threads.


Now should we count the fallacies?