How do we define the umpardonable sin?

marco · Post by **marco** » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:03 am

In Matthew 12:31 we have: â€œTherefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.â€�

Was Jesus just being dramatic here, trying to frighten his listeners? What on earth is "blasphemy against the Spirit"? Did Jesus, somewhere, elaborate on this dramatic statement?

And in what way is such blasphemy worse than, say, mass murder?

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:19 pm

"Free" does not always mean without giving something in exchange. If you are in USA you know how many "deals" say they are free, but it only means that everybody can apply for the service or product; free apply is not having it without giving something for it ... How many things do you really know are that "free" you're thinking about?

This is the case. You don't have to apply if you won't give what you must to get the salvation ... that is doble-free.

Athetotheist · Post by **Athetotheist** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:50 am

Eloi wrote: "Free" does not always mean without giving something in exchange. If you are in USA you know how many "deals" say they are free, but it only means that everybody can apply for the service or product; free apply is not having it without giving something for it ... How many things do you really know are that "free" you're thinking about?

This is the case. You don't have to apply if you won't give what you must to get the salvation ... that is doble-free.

Actually, "without giving something in exchange" is the very definition of "free". Does this free gift not abound more than those Madison Avenue "deals"?

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:29 pm

Sojournerofthearth wrote:1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It is the same all; resurrected to life, from Adam right on down to those living today... Every person who has lived and died from Algeria to Zimbabwe, from the beginning to the end...

So you reject the suggestion: 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so all in Christ shall be made alive. ??

As Barnes Notes wrote:
If the phrase "all die" there means all become sinners, then the phrase "all be made alive" must mean all shall be made holy, or be recovered from their spiritual death; and thus an obvious argument is furnished for the doctrine of universal salvation, which it is difficult, if not impossible, to meet.

And Gill wrote: that as all that were in Adam, all that belonged to him, all his natural seed and posterity, all to whom he was a federal head, died in him, became mortal, and subject to death through him; so all that are in Christ, that belong to him, who are his spiritual seed and offspring, to whom he is a covenant head, and representative, shall be raised to an immortal life by him; or as all the elect of God died in Adam, so shall they all be quickened, or raised to life in and by Christ.

Perhaps it is best understood to refer to the same idea as: Acts 24:15 ...having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. which is shared by the same author who also believes in damnation: Hebrews 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the 2 preserving of the soul.

Hebrews 12:29...for our God is a consuming fire.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:33 pm

Athetotheist wrote: Actually, "without giving something in exchange" is the very definition of "free". Does this free gift not abound more than those Madison Avenue "deals"?

It also has the idea of UNEARNED by any good works on earth as sinners, perhaps as the most important part of the idea.

Athetotheist · Post by **Athetotheist** » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:20 pm

ttruscott wrote:
Athetotheist wrote: Actually, "without giving something in exchange" is the very definition of "free". Does this free gift not abound more than those Madison Avenue "deals"?
It also has the idea of UNEARNED by any good works on earth as sinners, perhaps as the most important part of the idea.

I think that no sin being "unpardonable" should be the most important part of the idea.

Donray · Post by **Donray** » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:27 am

Eloi wrote: "Free" does not always mean without giving something in exchange. If you are in USA you know how many "deals" say they are free, but it only means that everybody can apply for the service or product; free apply is not having it without giving something for it ... How many things do you really know are that "free" you're thinking about?

This is the case. You don't have to apply if you won't give what you must to get the salvation ... that is doble-free.

free
[frÄ“]

FREE means no stings attached. If there is something in exchange that is a contract. Why don't you show me where you found the definition of FREE that says it is not free and must pay for it.

marco · Post by **marco** » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:11 pm

Sojournerofthearth wrote:
BUT there are stipulations. There are rules and laws and changes that have to be made... and God will give them the chance, empower them with his Spirit, the Tree of life, and the opportunity to become a new creation, but it is within the confines of a law that brings with it a new attitude of give instead of get.

This is like reading a treatise from Mars. How is this information gained? I can see that Paul just made things up to suit the theology he was substituting for Christ's and we can take his writing with a pinch of salt. But how do people in our century know so much about God's legislation and the fine print that Jesus is apparently still working on? Does Jesus leak news from time to time?

But more to the point, what has all this to do with the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost?

Sojournerofthearth · Post by **Sojournerofthearth** » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:37 pm

[Replying to post 243 by ttruscott]

So you reject the suggestion: 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so all in Christ shall be made alive. ??

What?

If the phrase "all die" there means all become sinners, then the phrase "all be made alive" must mean all shall be made holy, or be recovered from their spiritual death; and thus an obvious argument is furnished for the doctrine of universal salvation, which it is difficult, if not impossible, to meet.

Well, I think that since I stated that the bible does teach there is an unpardonable sin, then it would pretty well kick in the head an argument for Universal Salvation. Nevertheless, every man who was born in the line of Adam will be resurrected to life and given an opportunity to learn who and what is God. According to the Bible, if one is so inclined.

Or, we could just make up whatever we want our religion to be and rip out pages that we deem incorrect.

Soj

Donray · Post by **Donray** » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:55 pm

Sojournerofthearth wrote: [Replying to post 243 by ttruscott]

So you reject the suggestion: 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so all in Christ shall be made alive. ??
What?

If the phrase "all die" there means all become sinners, then the phrase "all be made alive" must mean all shall be made holy, or be recovered from their spiritual death; and thus an obvious argument is furnished for the doctrine of universal salvation, which it is difficult, if not impossible, to meet.
Well, I think that since I stated that the bible does teach there is an unpardonable sin, then it would pretty well kick in the head an argument for Universal Salvation. Nevertheless, every man who was born in the line of Adam will be resurrected to life and given an opportunity to learn who and what is God. According to the Bible, if one is so inclined.

Or, we could just make up whatever we want our religion to be and rip out pages that we deem incorrect.

Soj

Since Christians say the laws given in the old testament are null and void and this would include the ten commandments. Actually in the old testament god made lots of commandments and laws.

So please point out where god makes new laws in the new testament????????

Sojournerofthearth · Post by **Sojournerofthearth** » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:23 pm

[Replying to post 249 by Donray]

Since Christians say the laws given in the old testament are null and void and this would include the ten commandments. Actually in the old testament god made lots of commandments and laws.

So please point out where god makes new laws in the new testament????????

I can't really be held responsible for what those christians say. They would be wrong. It's the same law. How do you define sin if there is no law? Sin is the transgression of the law... (1Jn 3:4) Shall we sin because we are under grace? God forbid...for the wages of sin is death... you cannot know sin but by the law. (Romans) If we seek to be justified by Christ and are found sinners, is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (Galatians) Be you angry and sin not (Ephesians) Them that sin, rebuke, before all, that others may fear. (1Tim) For, if we sin willfully, after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no sacrifice for sins. Therefore, seeing we are compassed about by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily besets us, and run with patience, the race set before us... you have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Hebrews) But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust. And lust, when it has conceived, brings forth sin and sin brings forth death. Cleanse your hands you sinners and purify your hearts, you double minded. Him who knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin. (James) Christ also suffered for us, leaving an example that you should follow His steps, who did no sin, (1 Peter)

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:3-8)