Christmas - Would Jesus Celebrate it?

[2timothy316]

It cannot be denied that there are some good behaviors that Christmas is supposed and many times does stir in people. Loving, giving and helping the less fortunate.

While there is nothing against these things in the Bible, in fact these things are highly encouraged. Still, there are many things in Christmas that it is widely known are not scriptural, but quite pagan.

For debate, if Christmas was around during Jesus' day would he have taken part in it?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Because Saturnalia was pagan. Birthday celebrations are not necessarily pagan, anymore than breathing is. Pagans celebrate birthdays, that does not mean that birthdays are inherently pagan. Christians, Jews and Muslims celebrate birthdays too. Some things stem from our common humanity. It's a pity that JWs needlessly repress those things perhaps in attempts to distinguish their sect, or to wield control over their members. The opposite of Christian freedom, it seems.

[brianbbs67]

So, can we at least agree that Jesus would celebrate many Christmas traditions if we leave off the mistletoe?

Oh, and the ham. Jesus was an observant Jew and probably would not have eaten pork.

If the gospel Mark is accurate, he may have enjoyed bacon with his Christmas breakfast and ham for diner:

• Mark 7:17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?â€� he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.â€� (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Given his understanding that it is the heart that matters, I doubt mistletoe would have bothered him much. Who knows, he may have collected a few holy kisses himself.


Tcg

Except Mark 7:19 is disputed as a later addition. But, that does not really matter as the Greek word was Broma(what was declared edible by religious law)

https://biblehub.com/greek/1033.htm

[brianbbs67]

To post one, Jesus would have never, ever ,ever, celebrated anything other than the Feasts and holy days of God. There are 3 feasts and 7 holy days. Question to all here, what non Mosaic celebration did he and the rest of Judah participate in that the bible documents?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Because Saturnalia was pagan.

So are you saying that if a celebration is considered pagan it would be inappropriate for a Christian to participate? Please clarify. Do you not believe that a Christians participating (for more noble reasons) in a pagan celebration, "purifies" the pagan right out it?

For example do you not feel if Jesus feasted to Saturnalia he could have just explained that for him he was doing so for was for Jehovah ( or just to have a good meal with friends ) and that would have "Christianized" the whole affair?

Your thoughts?



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

This does seem tough to answer since, as EJ pointed out, in Jesus’ day it would have just been called “Jesus’ birthday.� Birthdays were certainly celebrated in Jesus’ day.

But I think what you are getting at is if Jesus would celebrate using customs that had pagan origins. That is hard to say with certainty.

I dont quite get what you are saying, are you suggesting Jesus would probably have celebrated his birthday but its simply a detail that the gospel writers didnt record?

[JehovahsWitness]

To post one, Jesus would have never, ever ,ever, celebrated anything other than the Feasts and holy days of God.

Yes but brian the point is WHY? For what reason? This is important because if the reason was simply custom or lack thereof (ie secular tradition) then we can think that Jesus would have participated in them as he was someone that again and again went against popular customs and social norms. Without attempting to understand why Jesus did or did not do what he did, we get caught in the formalistic worship that has little value in the eyes of God.

Someone has said here "Well Jesus wasnt loathe to having a good meal" and this is true, but devoid of any reasoning of what (if anything) influenced Jesus choices, we have a Jesus that had absolutely no restaint. Or a Jesus that made his decisions based solely on how much frosted cake would be available. Something tells me he may have been a little deeper than that.



JW

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Because Saturnalia was pagan. Birthday celebrations are not necessarily pagan, anymore than breathing is.

Pagan according to the Cambridge dictionary: "belonging or relating to a religion that worships many gods, especially one that existed before the main world religions."

There are no instances of any faithful person to Jehovah celebrating their birthday. However, there are pagan practices mentioned in the Bible. Egypt was known to have 'Pharaoh's Birthday'. (Gen 40:20) In fact in honor of the Pharaoh's Birthday the chief baker was impaled to death in the Genesis account. The Pharaoh was looked upon as a god in human form and we know that the Egyptians had many gods. So should people get their practices from Jehovah or from Pharaoh?

Birthdays were not a celebration instituted by Jehovah. Breathing was instituted by Jehovah. "And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." - Gen 2:7 So birthdays and breathing are no the same.

Christians, Jews and Muslims celebrate birthdays too. Some things stem from our common humanity. It's a pity that JWs needlessly repress those things perhaps in attempts to distinguish their sect, or to wield control over their members. The opposite of Christian freedom, it seems.

There is no need to pity us. I live a great life without celebrating my or anyone else's birthday. I actually pity those that do. Particularly the poor and those that have a hard time making friends. The stress that people but on birthdays as being so important but all the other days that the person is less important. Even in Jesus humility, he didn't celebrate his birth but he did celebrate his death. (Luke 22:14-20)

And you say, someone wields some power of us Witnesses? Yet those that celebrate birthdays are under the control of the commercial entities of the world. Marketers are telling them what day is important and what is not. Our 'common humanity' as you put is relevant every day not just our birthdays or Christmas.

You speak of freedom yet when Christmas comes you will be a slave to buying gifts for a birthday that isn't recorded in the Bible, gifts that most will be forgotten in a week or returned. You will be forced into pretending you like some gifts that you really don't. Then following all that, the guilt of forgetting someone you forgot to buy a gift for or couldn't afford to buy something for them. Then after all that 'merry' activity, the debt that follows. And for some it's crushing debt from which it takes them 6 months to a year to recover. As credit card companies smile from ear to ear.

This might come as a shock but I used to celebrate Christmas and I have more freedom now than when I did celebrated it. I don't miss a single part of Christmas. Do I miss gift giving and getting gifts? Nope, I give and get all year round. To I miss eating on Christmas? Nope, I eat on Christmas. Do I miss being with friends and family? Nope, once everyone is done their tree worship that is when we visit. I have money now to spend money on gifts for my friends and family throughout the year, no debt, no guilt, no pain watching as a person that I know can't afford it give me a gift. The best part is the joy in knowing that I'm making Jehovah happy because I'm worshiping His way and not following pagan rituals. The only thing I have to deal with are the attempts of people trying repress me back into celebrating Christmas. I think it's just jealousy that I'm not repressed as they are. But, hey it's a person's choice isn't it? If a person doesn't want to be free of the ball and chain that is Christmas, then so be it. No one determines when I can give gifts or what days I can eat with my family and friends. I find the accusation that I'm being repressed laughable because as a former Christmas participant I know what repressed is, and it's celebrating Christmas.

[2timothy316]

I will point out that most modern Christmas traditions don’t have pagan origins.

From the Encyclopedia Britannica.

"The earlier term Yule may have derived from the Germanic j�l or the Anglo-Saxon ge�l, which referred to the feast of the winter solstice."

From History.com

"In Scandinavia, the Norse celebrated Yule from December 21, the winter solstice, through January. In recognition of the return of the sun, fathers and sons would bring home large logs, which they would set on fire. The people would feast until the log burned out, which could take as many as 12 days. The Norse believed that each spark from the fire represented a new pig or calf that would be born during the coming year.

The end of December was a perfect time for celebration in most areas of Europe. At that time of year, most cattle were slaughtered so they would not have to be fed during the winter. For many, it was the only time of year when they had a supply of fresh meat. In addition, most wine and beer made during the year was finally fermented and ready for drinking.

In Germany, people honored the pagan god Oden during the mid-winter holiday. Germans were terrified of Oden, as they believed he made nocturnal flights through the sky to observe his people, and then decide who would prosper or perish. Because of his presence, many people chose to stay inside."

Saturnalia

In Rome, where winters were not as harsh as those in the far north, Saturnalia—a holiday in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture—was celebrated. Beginning in the week leading up to the winter solstice and continuing for a full month, Saturnalia was a hedonistic time, when food and drink were plentiful and the normal Roman social order was turned upside down. For a month, slaves would become masters. Peasants were in command of the city. Business and schools were closed so that everyone could join in the fun.

Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed Juvenalia, a feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of the upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25. It was believed that Mithra, an infant god, was born of a rock. For some Romans, Mithra’s birthday was the most sacred day of the year.

Early Romans marked the solstice with a feast called Saturnalia in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture. The Romans knew that the solstice meant that soon, farms and orchards would be green and fruitful. To mark the occasion, they decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs.

Pagan from the beginning. The 'yule log' was pagan, so is decorating with evergreen plants, and even the date is pagan.

[bjs]

This does seem tough to answer since, as EJ pointed out, in Jesus’ day it would have just been called “Jesus’ birthday.� Birthdays were certainly celebrated in Jesus’ day.

But I think what you are getting at is if Jesus would celebrate using customs that had pagan origins. That is hard to say with certainty.

I dont quite get what you are saying, are you suggesting Jesus would probably have celebrated his birthday but its simply a detail that the gospel writers didnt record?

Yes. Birthdays had been commonly celebrated for thousands of years before Jesus. As I said, we can’t be certain but it is likely that Jesus celebrated his birthday and the birthdays of his friends and family. Obviously without modern traditions, but still a celebration of some kind.

[2timothy316]

Yes. Birthdays had been commonly celebrated for thousands of years before Jesus.

Show us a single person in the Bible that was faithful to Jehovah that celebrated their birthday and I'll consider it a possibility. If there is no evidence of that than your assumption will be discarded as baseless.