Should Christians keep the law?

Post by **otseng** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:19 am

From the thread Keeping the commandments:

Tart wrote: Do you keep the law?

Questions for debate:
Should Christians keep the law?
If so, how much of the laws should we keep?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:29 pm

[Replying to post 29 by otseng]

I am in agreement with the idea you're talking about here.

Myself, I don't just toss out the Law Code. Actually, I have studied it quite a bit. It helps me get into the thoughts of God, though it maybe just tiny piece of it. What I'm reading in the comments in this post is an all or nothing approach. Today, some completely disregard the Law Code while others are still trying to follow it to the letter. When actually the Bible describes neither approach for dealing with the Law Code today. Even in the Greek Scriptures is says, "For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope." Ro 15:4. So clearly there is some good to be had from learning (keeping) the Law Code.

Avoice · Post by **Avoice** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:02 pm

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]

Curse of the law? Are you kidding? You quote Paul? Curse he says and you believe him? You really believe that, huh? Who is he to tell you? The law comes out if the Hebrew Scriptures so how about quoting from there.

A curse? Do you hear what you are saying? Now hear from the book of the law:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

"Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;

Avoice · Post by **Avoice** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:04 pm

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]

Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Post by **otseng** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:14 pm

How much of the Old Testament laws should Christians obey? All, none, some?

This was not an easy issue even for the apostles. Some thought circumcision was necessary for salvation.

[Act 15:1 KJV] 1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Paul and Barnabas disagreed and thought it was not necessary to obey the laws in order to be saved. Eventually, they had to appeal to the apostles and elders to give the final say.

[Act 15:2 KJV] 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Apparently, there was much debate about this among the apostles and elders.

[Act 15:6-7 KJV] 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing

Peter affirmed that salvation is only by grace and obedience of the law for salvation is not necessary.

[Act 15:11 KJV] 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

But, they did not stop there. They did say there are some things they must do, however, none of these things are necessary to be saved.

[Act 15:20, 28-29 KJV] 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. ... 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So, from this, there are at least some laws from the Old Testament that the apostles said people should obey.

Smythe · Post by **Smythe** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:15 pm

The Law and the Prophets refer to two sections of the Old Testament.

In fact, for Christians, they have not passed away, since they are now part of the Christian Bible (this might have been otherwise, since there were early Christians such as Marcion who vigorously argued otherwise).

There is no evidence that Jesus repudiated these scriptures, since he often referenced them. He told people to follow "The Commandments" and often gave examples. He himself was circumcised, and in all likelihood followed Kosher dietary laws.

What he did do was provide guidance as to their meaning (or, "keeping"). Blind (or, worse, boastful) compliance is not what is required; what is required is that they be fulfilled with love, as noted in posts above. In the incident of the woman caught in adultery, he did not challenge the commandment, but rather its hypocritical enforcement by those who had sinned themselves- which amounts to all of us. He pointed out that it is what comes out of our mouths which makes us unclean, not what goes in.

Christians believe that salvation is not achieved solely by following the law. But that does not equate to disregarding the law.

brianbbs67 · Post by **brianbbs67** » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:04 am

I do have to say that if one wants to follow the bible(which should include God), then all followers of Christ would be Torah observant. Jesus led a Hebrew revival. He never spoke against the law. So, if you follow Yeshau, Joshua, Ieous, you follow the law of Moses. Unless, you wish to be least in the kingdom?

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:21 am

otseng wrote: How much of the Old Testament laws should Christians obey? All, none, some?

This was not an easy issue even for the apostles. Some thought circumcision was necessary for salvation.

[Act 15:1 KJV] 1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Paul and Barnabas disagreed and thought it was not necessary to obey the laws in order to be saved. Eventually, they had to appeal to the apostles and elders to give the final say.

[Act 15:2 KJV] 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Apparently, there was much debate about this among the apostles and elders.

[Act 15:6-7 KJV] 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing

Peter affirmed that salvation is only by grace and obedience of the law for salvation is not necessary.

[Act 15:11 KJV] 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

But, they did not stop there. They did say there are some things they must do, however, none of these things are necessary to be saved.

[Act 15:20, 28-29 KJV] 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. ... 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So, from this, there are at least some laws from the Old Testament that the apostles said people should obey.

\

A key passage that most Christians have followed ever since.

Thank you.

Grace and peace to you.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:46 am

Avoice wrote: [Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]

Curse of the law? Are you kidding? You quote Paul? Curse he says and you believe him? You really believe that, huh? Who is he to tell you?

Perhaps my username on this forum is a clue as to how I feel about the 66 books of the Bible. Also we will not debate any book of the Bible as that is not the purpose of this forum and I don't have to defend any part of the Bible as to its authority.

Please refer to the purpose of this forum found here viewtopic.php?t=3168

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:04 am

brianbbs67 wrote: I do have to say that if one wants to follow the bible(which should include God), then all followers of Christ would be Torah observant. Jesus led a Hebrew revival. He never spoke against the law. So, if you follow Yeshau, Joshua, Ieous, you follow the law of Moses. Unless, you wish to be least in the kingdom?

Here is what Jesus said about the Law Code.

Then Johns disciples came to him and asked: Why do we and the Pharisees practice fasting but your disciples do not fast? At this Jesus said to them: The friends of the bridegroom have no reason to mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, do they? But days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast. Nobody sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old outer garment, for the new piece pulls away from the garment and the tear becomes worse. Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins. If they do, then the wineskins burst and the wine spills out and the wineskins are ruined. But people put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved. - Matthew 9:14-17

The Mosaic Covenant of the Israelite times was fine for them. But things were about to change and a lot of it was not meant for a group of people that would be made up of people from around the world. What would be the point of forcing laws and festivals on people that have no bearing on them or that might even be nearly impossible for them to keep. Can you imagine some person in Spain trying to make to Jerusalem after having a child just do to the the purifying ritual? (Lev 12;6)

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:43 am

Avoice wrote: [Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]

Curse of the law? Are you kidding? You quote Paul? Curse he says and you believe him? You really believe that, huh? Who is he to tell you? The law comes out if the Hebrew Scriptures so how about quoting from there.

A curse? Do you hear what you are saying? Now hear from the book of the law:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

"Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;

In light of what your just quoted did you do this commandment from the Law Code?

"When the days of her purification for a son or a daughter are completed, she will bring a young ram in its first year for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering to the entrance of the tent of meeting, to the priest." - Lev 12:6

Do you have children? Did you do this for each of your children? Did your parents do it for you when you were born?

Where is the 'tent of meeting'? The Tent of Meeting became the Temple of Solomon...but that is gone. So how can you even follow a law that it's impossible to follow? If you're not following the laws concerning the tent of meeting then so much for being a "great nation is a wise and understanding people." because now you're not following the Law Code.